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I want to go back to Donovan's waived off three from the first Pelicans game

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Donovan hit a three that put us up 6 with 37 seconds left. There was a foul called on the play. The official calling the foul rules it continuation on the floor.



The officials then determine to go to replay. Officials are allowed to go to replay to determine timing of plays. For instance, they can determine if there was a shot clock violation, or they can determine if a foul happened before or after a shot clock violation. They can not change the actual ruling on the floor in terms of what was actually called that doesn't have to do with timing. I.e. they can't go to replay (on their own) and determine that a defensive foul on the floor was actually an offensive foul upon review. They can review those on a coach's challenge, but on a review triggered by the officials, they can only change the call in relation to the timing or on something like a goal-tend, but otherwise not the actual substance of the call. One great example of this is when we were playing Memphis and they blew the "inadvertent whistle" and couldn't make the correct call of JJJ's over-the-back on Gobert, so it ended up being a jump ball. The apologetics for the officials is from the guys who go out of their way to demonstrate how they're objective and not bias is "hey, that's the right call, and they're not allowed to make changes on that. Tough luck."

What happened here is that the official totally blew the call, in a pretty historic fashion. There was no contact anywhere. I suspect he realized that he totally blew the call. So when they go to review, technically the only thing they can change is whether it was continuation or if it happened on the floor (either way Donovan is shooting free throws). Since the whole sequence of when the player called for the foul was by Donovan happened a couple seconds earlier, they can't sit there and look at that video and continue to say there was continuation (hey, it would have been nice if they would have called inadvertent whistle like they other yahoos did). But instead they did what they cannot do -- they changed the actual foul to being something way earlier in the sequence and a completely different player being fouled. Of course they had to justify blowing the whistle. And they can't claim that they were trying to review whether or not Donovan got the shot up before Gobert was fouled because the official's call on the floor that you can watch is him blowing a whistle on the foul and signifying that the basket counted. It's when that official looks to his left to the other official who did the inbound that he calls for a review.

But, hey, it doesn't matter. Anyone who has sway would burry their head in the sand and pretend there's some marvelous, nuanced answer for why this happen and not just that they totally, completely, absolutely ****ed this up and did their best to cover for it. Apparently officials can never change the foul to get the call right on their own reviews, and we'll continue to hear that non-sense when we're in these situations, but apparently they can break that rule when it's used to cover up the worst call of the season.
 
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Yep. That call cost us the game. An away-from-the-play foul that took place a split-second earlier should not have cost Donovan that dagger 3pt shot. That foul didn't put the Jazz at a disadvantage and should not have negated the shot. If anything, Rudy could have been given an and-1 free-throw.
 
Yeah the officiating has been pretty terrible this season. Imo it's been going down for the last few seasons but we've reached an all-time low. It seems there is a game-defining ****ed up call nearly every game. Used to be that was fairly rare, happened a few times a season. Now this kind of thing is becoming commonplace. And the terrible reviews seemingly allowed whenever they feel like it have served to make it worse, imo, because then they feel justified to just say "nope we reviewed it, everything is fine" when it decidedly isn't. It's doing the opposite of driving any accountability, is giving them a ******** out.
 
Smart boy Quin should have played the game under protest right then, but he didn't so the issue is moot to the league.
if he filed a protest the league either has to allow the protest or state in writing why they are not allowing it.
 
Smart boy Quin should have played the game under protest right then, but he didn't so the issue is moot to the league.
if he filed a protest the league either has to allow the protest or state in writing why they are not allowing it.
I'm willing to bet that's a bylaw that has never once been acted upon by anyone.
 
I'm willing to bet that's a bylaw that has never once been acted upon by anyone.
It’d be like reporting an accident to your insurance company. Yeah, they’ll pay it. But they’ll increase your rates and you’ll pay it and then some.
 
There are few things I hate more than complaining about refs. Especially when a team ****s up so badly on their own like that NOP, it's the lamest thing ever. I get secondhand embarrassment, and I don't even know why. I'm not on the team and I didn't mess up horribly to lose that game. But if I ****ed up that bad in my life and had the audacity to blame someone else, I would be ashamed. When fans get victim complexes I can't stand it.

As far as this specific play? I don't see the big deal. Reviewing if an off ball foul happened before or after a shot attempt is common. You are being insane if you don't think that they reviewing whether the shot came before or after the Gobert/Jones collision which was the foul that was called. You mean to tell me that the ref called the initial foul on the Mitchell's shot??? Absolutely insane. That's what complaining about the refs does, it makes people insane an irrational.

If Don's shot didn't go in, I'm sure nobody here would be complaining that we got two free throws out of it lol. It would disappear from our memories just like every call that goes our way.
 
they changed the actual foul to being something way earlier in the sequence and a completely different player being fouled.

How do you know the initial foul call was that Donovan was fouled?

Watching this, I thought it was Rudy being fouled and they were checking if he was fouled before or after Donovan was in shooting motion.
 
“There was no contact anywhere.”

Rudy was clearly fouled. And it was pretty clear it was before Donovan was in his shooting motion.

Which means it was the correct call.

The only real argument is that the ref initially called that Mitchell was fouled and therefore cannot correct the call, but I have not heard or seen any evidence that is the case.
 
That foul didn't put the Jazz at a disadvantage and should not have negated the shot. If anything, Rudy could have been given an and-1 free-throw.
That’s not the rules. What if don misses the three? You think it is a good call if the ref swallows their whistle when Gobert got fouled? A foul is a foul, refs don’t make calls based on later outcomes.
 
That’s not the rules. What if don misses the three? You think it is a good call if the ref swallows their whistle when Gobert got fouled? A foul is a foul, refs don’t make calls based on later outcomes.
Other than if they have money on the game.
 
I'm willing to bet that's a bylaw that has never once been acted upon by anyone.
The protest would be that the refs misapplied or interpreted the rule book wrongly. Upheld protests are rare but they have happened. If nothing else it puts the league and the union on notice that the refs screwed up.
 
I thought it was a moving screen on Rudy. And so did Rudy. Jazz were lucky to get two free throws out it.
 
I have never understood why basketball is so resistant to the idea of an advantage rule.
 
There are few things I hate more than complaining about refs. Especially when a team ****s up so badly on their own like that NOP, it's the lamest thing ever. I get secondhand embarrassment, and I don't even know why. I'm not on the team and I didn't mess up horribly to lose that game. But if I ****ed up that bad in my life and had the audacity to blame someone else, I would be ashamed. When fans get victim complexes I can't stand it.

As far as this specific play? I don't see the big deal. Reviewing if an off ball foul happened before or after a shot attempt is common. You are being insane if you don't think that they reviewing whether the shot came before or after the Gobert/Jones collision which was the foul that was called. You mean to tell me that the ref called the initial foul on the Mitchell's shot??? Absolutely insane. That's what complaining about the refs does, it makes people insane an irrational.

If Don's shot didn't go in, I'm sure nobody here would be complaining that we got two free throws out of it lol. It would disappear from our memories just like every call that goes our way.
I don't see it as a zero-sum game. This game was definitely there for us to win and we put ourselves in that situation. However, I don't think acknowledging one variable means that it's the only variable and that the others don't exist, nor do I think acknowledging one variable means that it has to be the biggest one in the equation. I get what you are saying about it being irrational to believe that the call was made on Mitchell's shot and how complaining about refs makes people irrational, but go back and watch that sequence. Pretend that Donovan missed the shot and there was no foul called. Now pretend I was trying to make the argument that Gobert got fouled and should have gone to the line. Would that be rational at all? Nobody in their right mind would have called that a foul and we're only allowing it in hindsight because that's what they did. I'd presume you'd think complaining about the refs had deranged my brain into thinking Rudy got fouled.

How do you know the initial foul call was that Donovan was fouled?

Watching this, I thought it was Rudy being fouled and they were checking if he was fouled before or after Donovan was in shooting motion.
The first would be that the whistle came well enough after the contact, the second would be that he wasn't the official with the angle on that call -- the baseline official who inbounded was, the third is that he raised his arm up indicating a personal foul and counted the basket. He did not use the correct hand signals for pushing or for holding, which would have been the call had it been called on Rudy. He instead held up the personal foul signal, followed by a continuation indication.

“There was no contact anywhere.”

Rudy was clearly fouled. And it was pretty clear it was before Donovan was in his shooting motion.

Which means it was the correct call.

The only real argument is that the ref initially called that Mitchell was fouled and therefore cannot correct the call, but I have not heard or seen any evidence that is the case.
I really don't believe you'd ever see a circumstance where that foul is called at all. If that call is made, it's almost exclusively against Rudy,

I thought it was a moving screen on Rudy. And so did Rudy. Jazz were lucky to get two free throws out it.
Yes.

The refs were the least of the problems in that game.

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This is one hesitation I have with making a thread like this. I have plenty of complaints about the team, and it's not one-or-the-other, and it doesn't mean that I think the whole game hinged on one call. But just like the players themselves can totally screw things up in the clutch, so too can the officials.
 
I don't see it as a zero-sum game. This game was definitely there for us to win and we put ourselves in that situation. However, I don't think acknowledging one variable means that it's the only variable and that the others don't exist, nor do I think acknowledging one variable means that it has to be the biggest one in the equation. I get what you are saying about it being irrational to believe that the call was made on Mitchell's shot and how complaining about refs makes people irrational, but go back and watch that sequence. Pretend that Donovan missed the shot and there was no foul called. Now pretend I was trying to make the argument that Gobert got fouled and should have gone to the line. Would that be rational at all? Nobody in their right mind would have called that a foul and we're only allowing it in hindsight because that's what they did. I'd presume you'd think complaining about the refs had deranged my brain into thinking Rudy got fouled.

I don't think it's irrational to say that Gobert got fouled. Me personally, I don't think that should be a call on either player. But there was definitely contact made between the two players. After watching it a few times more, it actually looks like Jones wraps up Gobert with both arms and tries to flop/intentionally make contact. The last two minute report calls states this as a correct foul on Jones because he he wrapped his arm around Gobert and yanked him. I didn't even notice his left arm until I read the report but I can see it now. I wouldn't have called it given the time/situation, but it's probably a foul on Jones by the book.

I do think it's irrational to think that they called on Mitchell's shot, called a review out of the blue, and then changed what they initially called so could change it....Obviously they blew the whistle on the contract between Jones and Gobert and then reviewed it to see if it happened before or after the shot. I think the alternate explanation of event's is irrational.
 
To be fair, the correct hand-signal piece is shaky and it is. Most often they use the personally foul call initially then they clarify.
 
meh. I don't think that call should have been the difference in the game. Jazz should have been winning by 20 when the bad call happened.
 
meh. I don't think that call should have been the difference in the game. Jazz should have been winning by 20 when the bad call happened.
We talk about so many things that aren’t the difference in a game, I don’t understand why the assumption ends up being there that if something like this is brought up that it equates to saying it’s the difference in a game. My argument is purely protocol. Can they do _____. Did they do _____. I get that some people believe the official without an angle called a defensive foul on Gobert way before the action but still ruled a good basket on the floor. The question is what foul was originally called. If he called the foul on Gobert, they can review sequence. My belief is that he made an atrociously terrible call and the baseline official motioned to him for review.

But hey, I’ll instead give the statements that would be more consistent with the assumptions being made from asking such question:

OMG guys teh refs!!!1 we win game but refs‍♂️♂️♂️ Jazz won game cuz tehy work play hard!! But refs cheat OMG!!! Jazz never lose game only Donald stern from beyond the grave put the hex on ref¿

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