The alt-right and the epistemological catastrophe.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Alfalfa, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Well-Known Member

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    There seems to be a lot of confusion about Trump's supporters' approach to debate, so I'm here to explain some things.

    The reason you can't debate with the Trumpers in the traditional rationalist way is not accidental. While the vast majority of ideologues (along with normal people) conform to their preferred side's talking points and arguments without a lot of reflection, those who create the talking points know exactly what they're doing. Someone like Dutch doesn't know what's going on. He's on 4chan and/or Reddit all day, and he parrots what he hears on those platforms, much like the vast majority of those platforms' users. Someone like Bannon, however, does.

    The ultimate goal of the neo-nationalists is to end "modernity". In particular, the acceptance of multiculturalism and feminism in the modern West. To do so you can either attack the first principles of modern egalitarianism, like individual autonomy as the basic unit on which moral values are built. Or you can attack the tools that the modernists use; i.e. rational discourse and scientific empiricism.

    The second point is the one relevant to this discussion. Neo-nationalists cannot win using the rationalist tools. So instead, they opt to attack rationality itself. If you want to claim that 5 times as many people attended Trump's inauguration or whatever, then you must follow that with dismissal of any contrary evidence. You can't go "let's see pictures and compare", because your argument is insincere, and a fact-based evaluation will result in its defeat. Therefore, you attack the messenger. "Oh did the mainstream media tell you this? lol, you're a sheep". Never, ever, address the fact at hand. Simply claim that all who disagree are simply in on the conspiracy. Scientists? They're all about keeping their careers and that grant money flowing. The media? All owned by the same evil globalists and work as truth gatekeepers.

    Back before those people rose to power, they were more forthcoming about their tactics and what they're trying to do. A very mild example would be the aforementioned Bannon when asked, in 2015, about immigration and its obvious positive effects on the economy. He simply responded that if maximizing GDP means having so many East Asians in positions of power (in business), then GDP is not worth pursuing.

    That's what they really think. But they cannot publicly take that stance (for now). So instead, they shout about fake news, the public schools, academia, or whatever source of information modern society has come to rely upon. As long as truth is in the eye of the beholder, then they cannot be wrong.

    And here we are in the midst of an epistemological crisis. Nothing can be trusted. There are no truths. There are only agendas. So hey, forget what those "experts" told ya, and join our cause.

    So remember this next time you're pulling your hair trying to get a simple fact across: they don't give a **** about your facts.

    Thank you.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Bulletproof

    Bulletproof All-Jazzfanz First Team! Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    That's a great post and certainly rings true in the majority of interactions I've had with Trump supporters.

    Something else I have been thinking about is this tactic of taking something that would normally be considered a virtue and coming up with a sneering reference to it, like "social justice warrior." I mean, you could just say "person who believes that everyone should be treated equally and fairly under the law." But you instead have an insult.

    There's also the extremely annoying and juvenile tactic of changing the name of something to an insult, like "lame stream media" chortle, chortle.

    I mean does that sort of thing have a name? It seems to be very satisfying to Trump supporters. Like they just eat that **** up and get all puffy chested when they can throw one of those zingers out there.
     
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  3. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Well-Known Member

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    Yep. That's part of what I was talking about here:

    It's an attack on the modern identity. The narrative that people create for themselves to feel like "good people". And the current dominant narrative is that of tolerance and inclusion. But they have something different in mind, so that identity gotta go.
     
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  4. NPC D4617

    NPC D4617 Well-Known Member

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    youre-right-echo-chamber.jpg
     
  5. NPC D4617

    NPC D4617 Well-Known Member

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    echo_chamber_1_600_391_80.jpeg
     
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  6. moevillini

    moevillini the Chief Old D'oh Staff Member

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    LOL!!! And "puffy-chesting" sounds like a possible term to describe that sort of behavior. Or maybe not that exactly, but it's a good name for something.
     
  7. Stars Fan

    Stars Fan Well-Known Member

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  8. lauriandres

    lauriandres Well-Known Member

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    Why is multiculturalism a good thing? I have felt the bad side effects personally during the Soviet time (we were almost forced to do everything in russian language - schools, workplace etc) and i would be really pissed if i should move to USA, get US citizenship, become famous for whatever reason (a la Jazz coach :) ) and everybody would say that i am american instead of an estonian person. For example, here in Estonia there was a story about great finnish female basketball player who is able to dunk. However, her name is arabic (she was born in Sudan) and of course does not have any resemblance of typical finnish woman.
    Or is it really OK to say (in USA) that apache is same as kiowa or cherokee?
    Not a fan of a Trump (however, because USA is our ally and so far it seems that there were not any counterfeiting of votes - of course, the mind of the voters were influenced from all over the world, i in general try to support him like i supported Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama), but not a fan of those people either who think that people are just a big gray mass i.e i should not be proud of my ethnicity etc. and adore everything that comes from outside.
    Even as an outsider i understand why such a huge amount of US citizens voted for Trump and probably vote again, if the opponents behave like they do whether it is on the streets or fanbase forums. For example, the General Discussion part of my another favourite forum airliners.net is also covered with posts that are full of Trump bashing and every other sensible thread sooner or later turns into same "i am good you are a bad" etc etc child sandbox discussion.
     
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  9. One Brow

    One Brow Well-Known Member

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    While I don't disagree with anything you said, I do want to point out that this is not new, and not exclusive to the alt-right, nor even the right. Bannon et. al. are preying on well-known, universal human tendencies that anyone who aspires to rationality must fight in themselves.
     
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  10. One Brow

    One Brow Well-Known Member

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    Multiculturalism is the accommodation of distinctions, not the elimination of them. It's the recognition that a diverse population is stronger than a monocultural population. Multiculturalism would support using both the Estonian and the Russian languages in schools, allows a person to identify themselves as Estonian or American according to their preference (in the situation you describe), recognizes the that basketball player is no less Finnish than any other Finn, and appreciates the differences as well as similarities in the traditions and experiences of the Apache, Cherokee, and Kiowa.[/QUOTE]
     
  11. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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    And this evening, all the major networks have decided to carrry Trump's prime time speech, in which he will no doubt lie. He will almost surely repeat what administrative spokespeople like Sanders and Nielsen have claimed in recent days, namely, that 4000 suspected terrorists attempted to enter the United States via the southern border in 2018. One of Trump's "techniques" is to simply repeat lies long after they have been refuted. One simply ignores truthful facts, and repeats disinformation over and over and over. When there is no truth, namely no accepted consensus reality where factual information is concerned, then there are no lies, only disinformation convenient to the propagation of alternative realities. Post Truth is always convenient to authoritarians.

    So, tonight, while the figure of 4000 suspected terrorists is simply false, utilized in a scare campaign in service to the desire by the Liar-in-Chief to declare a state of national emergency in the United States, the networks will provide a platform for Trump to repeat the Big Lie. The very institution that Trump has repeatedly called "the enemy of the people" will once again allow him free reign to promote his alternate reality. There he will be, actively engaged in a campaign of propaganda disinformation.

    Sooner or later the media need to decide if they should be compliant, simply because he is president, or if they should call him on his lies in real time fact checking. Or even carry his address at all, knowing as they do, that they will simply be acting in compliance to the presentation of disinformation propaganda. In a Post Truth landscape, the media needs to decide if they are an institution focused on countering propaganda, or simply a platform for its presentation.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/im...ase-stopped-cbp-southern-border-first-n955861
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  12. lauriandres

    lauriandres Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]
    I agree to disagree (or as we are saying in our language - you are not arguing whether the food is good or bad - but you fight :) ). I would still call a chinese (han) person a chinese person whether no matter whether he/she is citizen of China or some other country. At least currently in our country private companies won't fire a person, if he/she says that. :)
    In case of our small country - if you say that all other languages are equal - that will basically destroy our ethnicity. If you look at the map, you should know, why.
     
  13. gandalfe

    gandalfe Well-Known Member

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    What if that hypothetical Chinese person prefers to acknowledge both the Chinese and (for example) American parts of their heritage? Should they be allowed to do that? Would you respect their choice?

    I get your point about how making other languages official languages of Estonia could erase the language, although the counter argument to that would be Maori, where it took an act of recognizing it as being an official language of NZ to bring it back.
     
  14. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Well-Known Member

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    Not remotely as bad as now.
     
  15. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Well-Known Member

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    Funny, because most 2nd+ generation Asian Americans I know only identify as American, culturally.

    What you're describing in the USSR is the opposite of multiculturalism, and it's what we're trying to avoid.
     
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  16. idestroyedthetoilet

    idestroyedthetoilet Well-Known Member

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    Do you have one for pseudo-intellects or fake analysis?
     
  17. Harambe

    Harambe Well-Known Member Contributor

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    I'll help a brotha out

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. One Brow

    One Brow Well-Known Member

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    To me, where you were raised is a better indicator than ill-defined traits like biological groupings of ancestors.

    Absolutely Estonian should be the official language of Estonia. I don't think that disagrees with what I said.
     

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