The Honesty of Transgender Identity

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Bulletproof, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. Bulletproof

    Bulletproof All-Jazzfanz First Team! Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    Something I’ve noticed regarding the way people talk about transgender people is that they seem to think that someone being transgender is not about the transgender person, but about them. As if transgender people are trying to trick you, but you’re just too damn clever for that. As if a transgender person is not expressing themselves and presenting themselves according to how they really feel but that they are just trying to sucker you into playing along with their prank.


    Transgender people are often treated as though they are dishonest, that they are lying. It is that dismissive way of treating a transgender person’s gender identity that manifests itself in the form of refusing to address trans people according to their preferred pronouns. Something that costs you nothing. Something that takes nothing from you or your cis-gender status. It is this dismissiveness of trans gender identity that allows trans people to be dehumanized. To be treated not only like a joke, but as inherently deceptive therefore morally abhorrent.


    Trans people are not trying to trick you. Identifying as a trans person comes with many risks and huge disadvantages. It would be a stupid game to play just to trick you into giving them basic respect as an individual who has every right to live their life in a way that brings them the most comfort and the greatest possibility for happiness.
     

  2. Siro

    Siro Well-Known Member Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    The exact same post could've been made 20 years ago with "gay" replacing transgender.
     
  3. ♪alt13

    ♪alt13 Well-Known Member

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    I have been trying to avoid gender specific pronouns. I like the singular they thing for eveybody. I wish there were better options. A pronoun that just meant a singular person would be great.

    I refer to my wife as a woman and myself as a man but prefer not to make any assumptions about others.

    I also don't think that I should be subject to a pop quiz to guess your gender. I may be right most of the time but not all of the time.
     
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  4. Saint Cy of JFC

    Saint Cy of JFC Well-Known Member

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    Will being transracial ever be accepted and debated as a social group that need to be protected?
     
  5. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    I've never really thought about transgender people are trying to trick you into believing them. I believe they identify with the gender they say they are - for the most part (I don't believe in 63 different genders.) I support the LGBT community and want to support anyone who's doing what makes them happy. We have one life, it's short so do what makes you happy.

    There are only a few things I don't support with trans (I know that sounds really bigoted to say, but it's how I feel.) I think if you're willing to participate in controversial topics, being open and fluid is key to finding differences and common ground. I think the line should be drawn at sports participation. I do not have a problem with sharing the same bathroom with trans, but I can see where people are coming from who do - I can show examples of things that have happened too. I also don't think there should be laws to force people to call them by their pro-nouns they identify with. I will certainly call them by them out of respect and being a descent human being. I just don't think that forcing people, who believe in what they feel is factual, is the right way.

    I'll probably get a lot of **** for posting these videos, but they paint a good picture of my perspective. At the end of the day though, I am willing to learn, to understand, and will follow what science says.

    The first video is Joe Rogan talking to a scientist about sex and genders. The second video shows how it's hard for people to answer simple and obvious questions - basically, where do you draw the line?

    Again, I don't post this to offend or to act like I'm right. I post this because I'm willing to learn and educate myself. Props to BP for making this thread.

    *I removed the Joe Rogan video cause of swearing - if you want to see it, YouTube Joe Rogan Dr. Deborah Soh*

     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
  6. Siro

    Siro Well-Known Member Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    I don't even understand gender. Is gender a biological thing? I've always assumed it's just enculturation. If gender is a real biological thing in the brain, then that would be mean there is an inherent biological difference between the male and female brain, beside the effects of hormones on mental state and development. Which never made much sense to me.
     
  7. Saint Cy of JFC

    Saint Cy of JFC Well-Known Member

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    Imagine how tough this **** is for Spanish people.
     
  8. ♪alt13

    ♪alt13 Well-Known Member

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    Sex vs Gender

    One is a scientific fact
    One is a complex social construct

    One can be identified by your DNA
    One has to be discovered/experienced

    I would argue that sex is binary but that Gender is a spectrum.
     
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  9. Ron Mexico

    Ron Mexico Well-Known Member Contributor

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    That second video is simply a slippery slope argument, which is a poor argument. Yes, it's hard to draw a line but each question doesn't effect the others. They are separate discussions. I'm glad most people in that video are open to new things and willing to listen and weigh the issues.

    We all tend to take hard stances on something. This leaves no room for learning or adapting. It's especially an issue because it's generally areas we are not experts in. I think religion plays a large factor in this for some people and do does the way we are raised.

    I had a friend who I had known as a male for a long time inform me that they are a female about 10 years ago. I tried to be as supportive as possible. I felt I simply wanted them to be happy. But the fact is the whole process made me uncomfortable and wasn't something I understood at all. But I'm sure it was fast more uncomfortable for them. Having been around more people who have changed their identity I've become more comfortable with it but it's still not something I can personally understand. I try very hard to be polite to most people and I just want people to be happy with their lives and do what makes them happy as long as they aren't interfering with others to do the same.

    There transgendered issue has become much more simple for me. It's easy to see how people are on a scale and that scale can slide with sexuality and their gender.

    The whole bathroom issue has never really made sense to me. I'm not sure why we just don't have individual stalls and make everything else more open. A common area to wash your hands. The more open and mixed things are the less likely something will happen. No one complains that there aren't separate port o potties at events. They are just a free for all and you come out and wash your hands... hopefully.
     
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  10. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    I get that and understand it. However, in today's age it's becoming more complicated and more and more issues are arising. If you get a chance, watch the Rogan video and Dr Soh I posted.
     
  11. Ron Mexico

    Ron Mexico Well-Known Member Contributor

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    I don't understand how one would be a spectrum and the other would not be. I think they are both on a spectrum and they both are/can be moving or sliding.
     
  12. Saint Cy of JFC

    Saint Cy of JFC Well-Known Member

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    Most people dont know, or will even ever meet (knowingly), a trans person. I don't understand the whole thing at all, and I think that is largely because I've never known any of them on a personal level.
     
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  13. Saint Cy of JFC

    Saint Cy of JFC Well-Known Member

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    The thing I'm confused about is that recently there has been an emphasis on being less gender specific (like not telling boys they cant wear pink, girls cant play football, etc) and it seems like the whole trans thing is about being very gender specific.
     
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  14. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    I'm assuming this is your way of saying gender and sex are different, eh?

    Out of curiosity, what pronouns do you use when speaking to kids?
     
  15. One Brow

    One Brow Well-Known Member

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    This has always been an element of the hate for transgender. The notion of being tricked into intimacy, putting one's masculinity into question, motivates a great deal of transgender hate.

    One example that came to mind is from the the third The Naked Gun movie, where the notion that another character is transgender causes the hero to throw up into a tuba.
     
  16. Siro

    Siro Well-Known Member Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    I use he or she depending on whether they look like a boy or a girl, just like most people. And gender and sex ARE different things. That's what transgender is; a mismatch between sex and gender.

    But I am curious as to what people think gender is (so far, the responses haven't been very instructive). If it's a cultural thing, then is it like religion or ideology? Because those things are, in a sense, a choice. That's different from sexual attraction which is an impulsive reaction.
     
  17. One Brow

    One Brow Well-Known Member

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    Since race is based entirely on appearance, with neither performative nor biological basis beyond appearance, what does "transracial" mean to you? Is it waht some people have called "passing"?
     
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  18. Ron Mexico

    Ron Mexico Well-Known Member Contributor

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    I've had two relatively close friends come out as women who I previously knew as man. It was eye opening to me. I still struggle to understand it and feel comfortable with it. I've gotten much better though, I think. At least more appreciative of the struggle and more polite about it. After the first friend i thought I understood it better. But then the second friend made me realize I knew nothing and their process and experience was wildly different.

    Funny story, at least to me. The day after one friend told everyone they were transitioning to a woman a group of friends met up at the bar. It was 4 guys and this friend. It was a little awkward for everyone at first but we all drank and things got better. One guy started talking about how much he likes beer and that we should make a group to get together and try new beers. Then someone else piped in and said "Yeah! That would be awesome it could be a men only beer club we could all go to!" To which everyone froze and looked down for the next minute or so until someone said well, anyone could join. It was one of the more uncomfortable feelings in a room I've been apart of. We've all laughed about it later.
     
  19. Siro

    Siro Well-Known Member Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    I went to school with a transgender woman. She was a sweetest person. I visited her post-op. She was pretty cute as a guy, and became even cuter as a woman. I also work with a transgender woman. She's a total douche. I avoid her at all costs.
     
  20. Archie Moses

    Archie Moses Well-Known Member

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    For me, I think gender is a social construct that as a society, we're still learning about. From what I undeterred, it was introduced this way in the 40s or 50s by a French feminist. Before then, wasn't gender and sex the same thing? (Honestly don't know)

    I think a lot of people think they are the same thing. I do feel that they are synonymous in a lot of regards, especially with language. I do feel that they can cross too. For example, allowing trans females who were born males to compete amongst females. I think that's a slippery slope.
     

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