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Utah Jazz 2012/13 season. Civil War edition (part 1: Ty Corbin)

Lion's Roar

Lion's Roar

Active Member
The 2012/13 season is in the books. Another year as gone by and the state of the Jazz is in flux. Serious flux. The Jazz have already passed trough this kind of situation before but this time there is a new twist to consider. There is dissection in the ranks. If you think this is going to be a post about how one faction of Jazznation is right and the others are a bunch of fools, think again. That ain't happening. Those that know me know that I have followed the Jazz for almost 20 years and that I've spent at least a decade following fan interaction very closely over the web. This year was different. It seems that a sort of Civil War exploded onto Jazz fandom. Yet I can't figure out why exactly is it that folks haven't figured out that their views are closer than they imagine.

As soon as we realize that one side aren't a bunch of fascists spewing propaganda to the masses and the other aren't a bunch of freedom fighters that break some sort of silence barrier imposed by the oppressive franchise the faster we will move into a more even keel analysis of the season that passed. What I'm trying to say is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong. If not let's see:

* Ty Corbin managed the team quite well considering the circumstances

FACT: Indeed the Jazz coach did a commendable job in keeping the locker room together. With 8 FA's on the roster there was a very high "implodability" factor involved with this season. If you think this particular skill set isn't important I would direct you to the words of one Rick Carlisle that went trough the same situation with worst results and stated clearly at season end that with the new CBA there was a very good chance every team will see this kind of roster for the foreseeable future. Please consider that when analyzing Ty the coach. Let's not forget that if you dismiss the first half season filled with uncertainty over the course the franchise would follow the Jazz have a 79 - 69 record (.533 Win%). I keep hearing that Ty is miserable, the FO is incompetent and the players are seriously flawed. Well something has to be wrong or else the Jazz would't have a 10 games plus on the winning column over the last 150 games (148 to be exact). This are issues that the fans need to consider and completely bypass who is saying them and where they are saying it. What matters is if the reasoning passes the eye test. And it does. These are valid points that fans can't disregard cause they don't like Locke or they don't like the fact the team owns 1280thezone.

MYTH: Ty managed to preserve the locker room but to do so he might have cost the Young players valuable playing time. Not only that but you can't shake the idea that it reveals a higher commitment to his relationships with the players than with the franchise itself. I believe that because of this some of the Jazz veterans failed the coach and didn't respect the position he put himself into to preserve their playing time especially during the miserable losing streak the team endured after Mo came back. Also after watching Hayward blossom at the end of the 2011/12 season it's kind of hard to envision why he wasn't allowed to continue that trend since the start of this season. Without a doubt this are very valid questions that warrant a response that goes beyond fans don't know what they are saying cause they don't have insider knowledge or because they never experienced the NBA as a player or coach. Those are cop outs designed purely to prevent discussion.

Cause of lack of time I will have to do this in parts and so I will write a post about the Front Office and the Players themselves.


https://nbafromacrossthepond.blogspot.pt
 
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Nicely done. Not sure where I stand on some of the comments but it causes one to think which is often missing on this board. One should realize that very few coaches in this league like to play young players. Ty was clearly trying to balance playing time with other dynamics. The comments Dennis L made about that were particularly interesting.
 
I love how people say Ty managed the season well with so many players in their contract year.

If you mean sacrificing the development of the youth in favor of players who are most likely out the door anyways. Yeah, Ty did a great job.

And again all we have to look at is the results, and come to your own conclusion.
 
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Damning Ty with faint praise, thanks for that! Seriously, how does anyone really know what Ty did to "keep this team together"? Do you know of one solid fact that supports what you say? How do you know that the players themselves, as solid individuals, didn't just do the right thing and not disrupt the team? What specifically did Ty do? How do you know if it would have been any different with a different coach? And how did he do it? By overplaying "solid vets" at the expense of the C4? And finally, with an improved roster, how did the season turn out? They regressed and missed the playoffs. Nice, real nice.

Ty to me looks like he is in way over his head. It has taken him 2.5 years to figure out some very simple things, like substituting for defense in the last minute of the game. And his most significant flaw is to relentlessly rely on Big Al, who destroys the team on defense, transition, hustle, ball movement etc etc.
 
problem is ty made the same mistakes twice.
two years in a row.
worshipping crappy vets.

ege josh howard going out and raja. which led to carroll playing more and hayward playing more and thanks to that making the playoffs.
playoff rolls around and ty benches carroll in favor of josh howard.

has he not learned anything.

kanter going off when al was out. close road losses, which should have been wins.
kanter still gets 5mpgs
 
I wouldn't say that a coach that capitulates to mediocre players - then has a worse product on the floor - is something to be commended.

But yeah, I agree that the FO bungled this pretty badly.
 
FACT: Indeed the Jazz coach did a commendable job in keeping the locker room together. With 8 FA's on the roster there was a very high "implodability" factor involved with this season. If you think this particular skill set isn't important I would direct you to the words of one Rick Carlisle that went trough the same situation with worst results and stated clearly at season end that with the new CBA there was a very good chance every team will see this kind of roster for the foreseeable future. Please consider that when analyzing Ty the coach. Let's not forget that if you dismiss the first half season filled with uncertainty over the course the franchise would follow the Jazz have a 79 - 69 record (.533 Win%). I keep hearing that Ty is miserable, the FO is incompetent and the players are seriously flawed. Well something has to be wrong or else the Jazz would't have a 10 games plus on the winning column over the last 150 games (148 to be exact). This are issues that the fans need to consider and completely bypass who is saying them and where they are saying it. What matters is if the reasoning passes the eye test. And it does. These are valid points that fans can't disregard cause they don't like Locke or they don't like the fact the team owns 1280thezone.
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Lets break this down into smaller portions.

High implodability factor? Absolutely. The easiest way to handle a situation like that is to reward those that are working hard on both ends of the floor. If you do that you can always refer to those that are complaining that if they work hard they will get time. Did that happen? I don't know the locker room, all I can see is what happened on the floor. Demare competed as hard or harder than anyone on the team and yet he seemed to be an afterthought. So the argument could easily be made that the locker room stayed tight despite Ty and his rotations.

You want to dismiss half of a season? Sure, lets just dismiss all the games that have been lost since Ty became the head coach and he would be an instant Hall of Famer. You can't just throw out things because of circumstances. That is just silly.

The biggest complaint that I have with Ty is the lack of coaching progress. Has he become a better coach? I don't think that he has. A lot of the moves that seemed smart were based off of injury necessity and not because Ty saw something that needed to change. Overall Ty has not improved and we are looking at another season of the same but with different personnel.
 
NUMBERICA said:
I wouldn't say that a coach that capitulates to mediocre players - then has a worse product on the floor - is something to be commended.

But yeah, I agree that the FO bungled this pretty badly.
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Thank you. Ty has his priorities messed up and therefore the team is messed up.
 
Again I failed to present the things in the manner that I wanted to. My point is that both sides have legitimate questions. I'm not defending Ty and his decisions. I'm asking for ppl to look at what happened without preconceptions. Would I have played the young guys more? Absolutely. Do I think Ty should have sat down Millsap and Foye more than what he did? I think so. Were there other questionable calls? Yes.

But WHY can't I assume that Ty did a good job keeping the team together? Why? There's more evidence that points to that happening than the other way around. Can't I say that he could have done a better job and still believe that other things played into his decisions? On the flip side can't the ones that speak for the Jazz see that Corbin did manage the team well but failed to see a lot of other issues in a timely faction?

Can't both sides figure out and meet in the middle before this thing blows up? And by blow up I mean years of mediocrity in Utah or even years of relevance in Las Vegas or Seattle.

Why would I assume that what Locke says is propaganda? Any of you listen to him talk? Sometimes I think he may put himself in trouble with the criticism that sometimes he vents. Why would I assume Dennis Lindsey is lying to me and all other fans? Did he do ANYTHING that warrants that suspicion? Why not accept his word and criticize other things that can and should be criticized. There's nothing more counterproductive to an argument that seeks change than to bitch and moan about everything and anything.
 
Lion's Roar said:
But WHY can't I assume that Ty did a good job keeping the team together? Why? There's more evidence that points to that happening than the other way around.
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What evidence? You provided none, just stated a belief that you THINK he kept the team together. Do you have evidence that Ty did that?
 
Revolution 9 said:
I love how people say Ty managed the season well with so man players in their contract year.

If you mean sacrificing the development of the youth in favor of players who are most likely out the door anyways. Yeah, Ty did a great job.

And again all we have to look at is the results, and come to your own conclusion.
Click to expand...

Amen and amen
 
Lion's Roar said:
Again I failed to present the things in the manner that I wanted to. My point is that both sides have legitimate questions. I'm not defending Ty and his decisions. I'm asking for ppl to look at what happened without preconceptions. Would I have played the young guys more? Absolutely. Do I think Ty should have sat down Millsap and Foye more than what he did? I think so. Were there other questionable calls? Yes.

But WHY can't I assume that Ty did a good job keeping the team together? Why? There's more evidence that points to that happening than the other way around. Can't I say that he could have done a better job and still believe that other things played into his decisions? On the flip side can't the ones that speak for the Jazz see that Corbin did manage the team well but failed to see a lot of other issues in a timely faction?

Can't both sides figure out and meet in the middle before this thing blows up? And by blow up I mean years of mediocrity in Utah or even years of relevance in Las Vegas or Seattle.

Why would I assume that what Locke says is propaganda? Any of you listen to him talk? Sometimes I think he may put himself in trouble with the criticism that sometimes he vents. Why would I assume Dennis Lindsey is lying to me and all other fans? Did he do ANYTHING that warrants that suspicion? Why not accept his word and criticize other things that can and should be criticized. There's nothing more counterproductive to an argument that seeks change than to bitch and moan about everything and anything.
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In the end we don't know what happened behind closed doors. All we have to judge is what we saw, and the results of the season.
 
Fact si ty missed the playoffs.
last year he would have missed the playofs if certain players would not have gotten injured.
because of injury he was forced to play certain players that led us to the playoffs.

in my book ty is 2.5-0 in playoffs
 
It's not hard to keep the locker room in check if you give potential whiners all they want at the expense of non-vocal disciplined young guys who would suffer more damage from expressing their displeasure. My concern is they won't forget it.
 
zbone said:
It's not hard to keep the locker room in check if you give potential whiners all they want at the expense of non-vocal disciplined young guys who would suffer more damage from expressing their displeasure. My concern is they won't forget it.
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Plus mother freaking 1!!!!
 
God the Original post in this thread is pathetic. A complete homer call on Ty while not addressing any of his issues. The vary basis of the post was completely made irrelevant by the homer content of that post. Your fact and Myth are both opinions in the defense of TY.
.
Ty did not manage this roster. It did not implode because the coach did not have the balls to stand up to the vocal players when he should have. Having the locker room implode would not have been the worst thing that could have happened this season. Finishing out of the playoffs while not playing the guys who earned it was. And that is where we ended up.
 
Lion's Roar said:
Again I failed to present the things in the manner that I wanted to. My point is that both sides have legitimate questions. I'm not defending Ty and his decisions. I'm asking for ppl to look at what happened without preconceptions. Would I have played the young guys more? Absolutely. Do I think Ty should have sat down Millsap and Foye more than what he did? I think so. Were there other questionable calls? Yes.

But WHY can't I assume that Ty did a good job keeping the team together? Why? There's more evidence that points to that happening than the other way around. Can't I say that he could have done a better job and still believe that other things played into his decisions? On the flip side can't the ones that speak for the Jazz see that Corbin did manage the team well but failed to see a lot of other issues in a timely faction?

Can't both sides figure out and meet in the middle before this thing blows up? And by blow up I mean years of mediocrity in Utah or even years of relevance in Las Vegas or Seattle.

Why would I assume that what Locke says is propaganda? Any of you listen to him talk? Sometimes I think he may put himself in trouble with the criticism that sometimes he vents. Why would I assume Dennis Lindsey is lying to me and all other fans? Did he do ANYTHING that warrants that suspicion? Why not accept his word and criticize other things that can and should be criticized. There's nothing more counterproductive to an argument that seeks change than to bitch and moan about everything and anything.
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Please quote anything that Locke has ever said that would show criticism to the franchise and the coach? When I listen all I hear is him sucking the **** of the coach and franchise and using obscure stats he made up to back up dubious decisions.
 
Hate to completely blow up your theory about Corbin but Marc Jackson is making Corbin look completely incompetent.

I rest my case.
 
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