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Kanter 30 Pts and 16 Rebs... And Now the Rest of the Story...

lol okc starts dion waiters kyle singler these guys cannot defend me

compliment them with enes
bang

also suck
 
Really like karl malone's take a page back. I certainly understand the venom we're seeing toward Kanter. I felt all kind of vindicated with the Jazz's win over OKC last week. But I hope that doesn't preclude us from facing facts. Kanter's a wonderful offensive/rebounding talent who's been on a real statistical roll since joining the Thunder.

What I don't get (well, I guess I do get it, but it seems like playing with fire), is all these Jazz supporters on Twitter (including Locke and Tony Jones tonight) going on and on about Kanter's plus/minus and point-in-the-paint stats from game to game. It's as if they're trying to persuade the OKC fans and organization, as well as anyone who will listen nationally, that Kanter's terrible. But it's a bad use of stats on such a limited sample size in a new system with a still-young player, for one thing. And even if it were not, wouldn't it be better to have the realization dawn on OKC slowly?

In any event, OKC likely has a very different perspective on things. Remember back when plus/minus was just coming into vogue? It was early in Kevin Durant's career, and his +/- numbers were at the bottom of the league or thereabouts, despite his high scoring. You had some stats guys convinced he was a bust. But then one year, his plus/minus stats moved toward the top of the league, and he was universally acclaimed as a superstar. For those don't remember, see this article.

So when OKC's organization thinks about Kanter, it probably has the memory of Durant somewhere in mind. Not necessarily that Kanter will become a superstar, but just that plus/minus and defense stats can improve greatly from a player's early career (not to mention how much these stats depend on fit within a system and among a particular collection of teammates). Kanter's a bit older now than Durant was when the switch flipped, but he also has less total basketball experience and appears to be starting from a baseline of much more immaturity. There's no guarantee the switch will flip for Kanter. Even if he does keep manage the frequent 25/15 line, he may end up being no more of a winner than Carmelo Anthony. But no matter how much Jazz supporters taunt them now, OKC probably feels good about the price it paid to see whether that switch will flip will over time.

None of this is to say that the Jazz shouldn't have made the trade. I think the Jazz correctly decided that the switch wasn't going to flip for Kanter in Utah for reasons of his own making, as well as because he had become unnecessary to the Jazz's identity with the Favors-Gobert pairing going forward. But they likely understood that he had improved a lot during his Jazz years. (I don't buy that the Corbin years were wasted development years for Kanter -- he improved even if neither he nor Jazz fans want to recognize it. I think the Jazz rightly prioritize instilling winning habits over statistical production and playing time for the development of young players -- see Hayward, Favors, Gobert.) And they likely realized that he could possibly blow up elsewhere. But it's a trade that had to be made.
 
60 points in the paint tonight for Memphis. Once again, well above league average for the opposing team.
 
idiot said:
Really like karl malone's take a page back. I certainly understand the venom we're seeing toward Kanter. I felt all kind of vindicated with the Jazz's win over OKC last week. But I hope that doesn't preclude us from facing facts. Kanter's a wonderful offensive/rebounding talent who's been on a real statistical roll since joining the Thunder.

What I don't get (well, I guess I do get it, but it seems like playing with fire), is all these Jazz supporters on Twitter (including Locke and Tony Jones tonight) going on and on about Kanter's plus/minus and point-in-the-paint stats from game to game. It's as if they're trying to persuade the OKC fans and organization, as well as anyone who will listen nationally, that Kanter's terrible. But it's a bad use of stats on such a limited sample size in a new system with a still-young player, for one thing. And even if it were not, wouldn't it be better to have the realization dawn on OKC slowly?

In any event, OKC likely has a very different perspective on things. Remember back when plus/minus was just coming into vogue? It was early in Kevin Durant's career, and his +/- numbers were at the bottom of the league or thereabouts, despite his high scoring. You had some stats guys convinced he was a bust. But then one year, his plus/minus stats moved toward the top of the league, and he was universally acclaimed as a superstar. For those don't remember, see this article.

So when OKC's organization thinks about Kanter, it probably has the memory of Durant somewhere in mind. Not necessarily that Kanter will become a superstar, but just that plus/minus and defense stats can improve greatly from a player's early career (not to mention how much these stats depend on fit within a system and among a particular collection of teammates). Kanter's a bit older now than Durant was when the switch flipped, but he also has less total basketball experience and appears to be starting from a baseline of much more immaturity. There's no guarantee the switch will flip for Kanter. Even if he does keep manage the frequent 25/15 line, he may end up being no more of a winner than Carmelo Anthony. But no matter how much Jazz supporters taunt them now, OKC probably feels good about the price it paid to see whether that switch will flip will over time.

None of this is to say that the Jazz shouldn't have made the trade. I think the Jazz correctly decided that the switch wasn't going to flip for Kanter in Utah for reasons of his own making, as well as because he had become unnecessary to the Jazz's identity with the Favors-Gobert pairing going forward. But they likely understood that he had improved a lot during his Jazz years. (I don't buy that the Corbin years were wasted development years for Kanter -- he improved even if neither he nor Jazz fans want to recognize it. I think the Jazz rightly prioritize instilling winning habits over statistical production and playing time for the development of young players -- see Hayward, Favors, Gobert.) And they likely realized that he could possibly blow up elsewhere. But it's a trade that had to be made.
Click to expand...

It's not that complicated. Enes Kanter cannot play defense and it is killing the Thunder right now. Many of us are enjoying that fact. We're not trying to persuade people in OKC or anywhere else of anything, we're enjoying it for our own sake. And he won't be getting any better at defense. His feet and his brain are just naturally incredibly slow and that's not going to change at this point in his life.
 
Nicksti said:
Jazz fanatics want Kanter to bust to protect the organization.

If Kanter continues to perform well then what will be our excuse? That you still don't want that kind of player in the organization who will tank if he isn't happy? What about the role of management to properly manage players?

2013-14 was a tank year.
2014-2015 is a tank year.
If 2015-2016 we are tanking again what does that really say about the organization?

Somewhere along the way what Kanter said about the Jazz will either be bitter lies or the horrible truth.

And for Jazz fans to laugh at the notion of Kanter getting a max contract all the while having a max contract in Hayward on the books seems like pots and kettles.
Click to expand...

How was the Jazz management supposed to manage Kanter exactly so he wouldn't become discontent? Give him everything on a silver platter? We let 2 all-stars walk so Kanter would have playing time.
We shouldn't have taken Rudy in the draft? We shouldn't have gotten a competent 4th big in Booker? We should have kept Rudy on the bench more? Or should we have traded Favors so poor lil Enes wouldn't be mad cuz he's not getting minutes he doesn't deserve. Hell, he was getting outplayed by Booker at times this season. What does that tell you? He wasn't interested in staying in Utah, it's plain and simple. And he said it - he wasn't bringing it every night.

I don't get the people defending him and absolving him of all responsibility for the way things turned out and the way he played throughout the years. It's like defending your ex that dumped you but you are still in love with, while she goes around town telling people what a POS you are, even though she wasn't the one holding her end of the responsibilities in the relationship. And you are like - "oh but look, how good she is with her new boyfriend, and I hear she even gives him head every once in a while, wonder why she never did that for me, even though I did everything for her... I wish we could be back together, even if she hates me and still 'doesn't bring it every night' "...

The organization might not be the perfect one in the league, they might have made some mistakes through the years in their trades and in the way they developed the young players early, but in the last couple of years Kanter has absolutely nothing to quibble about. He was the starting center and was getting 28 minutes every night, even though we had a better option than him. He had a coaching staff that according to reports was spending inordinate amount of time trying to teach him and work on his game. Hell I think towards the end he was showing some nice improvements even in his defensive game. He felt the pressure from a 2nd year player and saw the writing on the wall and stormed out asking for a trade citing how he was managed 3 years ago by different management and different coaching staff? Are you ****ing kidding me? Then after his wish was granted he turns around and throws mud at everybody in the organization from teammates to coaching staff to FO to fans to the city. And we are supposed to feel bad about losing him? Are you ****ing kidding me? What kind of masochism is that? I am sorry but there really aren't 50 shades of grey in that story.

He was a child who wanted everything gifted to him and when he didn't get it or felt like wasn't going to get it, he threw a tantrum and fled away. He wanted the playing time without being held responsible for his lack of effort or horrible team play on both ends. Why wouldn't we be wishing him to fail?

I hope he gets his max, I hope KD and Westbrook storm out in a couple of years and he's left with an untradable contract on a lottery team forever.
 
It was rich son seeing OKC switching Kanter in and out of the lineup in the final two minutes, alternating him for offense only. Clearly Scott Brooks knows there's an issue.


Sent from the JazzFanz app
 
I posted on other thread but looks like discussion is here.

Quotes from nba forum.

A Mephis Grizzlies fan
"It is a guarantee that Kanter is going to be a monster offensively, IMO. Going into this game, I questioned his ceiling because of how badly he looked on defense when I had watched him before. However, he did a good job on Marc and ZBo for long stretches.
A combination of KD, Westbrook and a refined Kanter is a scary thing from the POV of a Western conference foe, but exciting as an NBA fan."

Golden State Warriors fan (lol on this one)
"Westbrooks MVP and Kanter is the next Wilt."

A Jazz fan (how clever of him.)
"Kanter with the stats and the L (as always)."

A Bucks fan responding to said Jazz fan
"I really don't think this one is on Kanter. He seemed to give quite a bit of effort tonight. I mean, still **** Kanter, but tonight's not really on him."
 
The Blue Elephant said:
I posted on other thread but looks like discussion is here.

Quotes from nba forum.

A Mephis Grizzlies fan
"It is a guarantee that Kanter is going to be a monster offensively, IMO. Going into this game, I questioned his ceiling because of how badly he looked on defense when I had watched him before. However, he did a good job on Marc and ZBo for long stretches.
A combination of KD, Westbrook and a refined Kanter is a scary thing from the POV of a Western conference foe, but exciting as an NBA fan."

Golden State Warriors fan (lol on this one)
"Westbrooks MVP and Kanter is the next Wilt."

A Jazz fan (how clever of him.)
"Kanter with the stats and the L (as always)."

A Bucks fan responding to said Jazz fan
"I really don't think this one is on Kanter. He seemed to give quite a bit of effort tonight. I mean, still **** Kanter, but tonight's not really on him."
Click to expand...

Quote from actual statistical fact: Memphis -- 60 points in the paint. Who is that on?
 
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