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Quit overrating the 12 pick. It sucks.

You're overrating Barnes quite a bit, and rating Batum on what he has been, instead of what he currently is.

Agree, and contract situations need to be taken into account, which greeny seems to ignore. If Utah can find the right deal, I have no problem trading the pick this year. However, this attitude of dumping the pick because it's trash, let alone for a short term player at a position we already have filled adequately, is short-sighted and nutty.
 
Do you know what the following names have in common:

Joe Smith
Purvis Ellison
Mark Workman
Andy Tonkovich
Bill McGill
Kwame Brown
Kent Benson
Michael Olowokandi
Greg Oden
LaRue Martin

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, they were all #1 NBA draft picks and they all sucked. If we win the lottery we should trade the pick if we are offered anything better than a bag of chips, because as you can clearly see, sometimes the #1 pick does not work out.
 
Agree, and contract situations need to be taken into account, which greeny seems to ignore. If Utah can find the right deal, I have no problem trading the pick this year. However, this attitude of dumping the pick because it's trash, let alone for a short term player at a position we already have filled adequately, is short-sighted and nutty.

What a freakishly freaking good post.
 
Ignoring the fact that Julius Erving was taken with the 12th pick, I don't understand why you seem to have an opposition specifically to the 12th pick. Would trading down to 13th work for you? Or is that too unlucky a number? Perhaps 14th then? That one had Clyde Drexler and Tim Hardaway. Please enlighten us as to what pick numbers have the synchronicity with the universe to be considered a viable asset.

13 is unlucky for the Hornets - who drafted Kobe and foolishly traded him to the Lakers.
 
Agree, and contract situations need to be taken into account, which greeny seems to ignore. If Utah can find the right deal, I have no problem trading the pick this year. However, this attitude of dumping the pick because it's trash, let alone for a short term player at a position we already have filled adequately, is short-sighted and nutty.

When did I ignore this? Please, show me when I ignored contracts and said Utah should trade the 12 pick just to trade it. I've said I would move it for two things right now:

Barnes or Batum.

Those are no brainer moves.

So, cappy, show me where I said to dump it for trash.

Show me where I said to dump it for a position we already have adequately filled. And remember, right now we have Hayward at the three and no other proven starting wing. Burks and Hood COULD be that guy, but both have spent a lot of time hurt and neither has shown they can be a starter for 82 games. So, I guess you were correct that our SG and SF positions are adequate, but they aren't filled or secure, not by any stretch of the means.

Also, as far as short term, yeah, Batum could be short term. Barnes isn't short term. We would hold his restricted FA, which means it would be a 5+ year deal for him. Not short term at all. In fact, the very definition of long term in today's NBA.
 
I find it interesting when we use draft position as some historical precedent that's a marker for future expectation. A more accurate assessment is to look at who has been drafted at 12 or beyond to have an idea of what kind of talent is on the board. For instance, Batum was the 25th pick; would we have a better chance landing a Batum with that draft position than with a #12?

I'd be willing to be that if you look at #12 and beyond, the chance of successful drafting goes way down. It would make my point even more.

Nice try.
 
Ignoring the fact that Julius Erving was taken with the 12th pick, I don't understand why you seem to have an opposition specifically to the 12th pick. Would trading down to 13th work for you? Or is that too unlucky a number? Perhaps 14th then? That one had Clyde Drexler and Tim Hardaway. Please enlighten us as to what pick numbers have the synchronicity with the universe to be considered a viable asset.

And Malone, Stockton, Parker, Leonard, AK, etc were all taken after the 12th pick. The CHANCES you draft one of those guys at 12 is slim to none. IF you can trade #12 for Barnes, you do it. No brainer. You don't keep #12 for a minuscule chance the guy you pick becomes Barnes.
 
Y DiD DENIS LINSAY tred 4 twenty7th pick in 2013!.!1@!? DIDNT HE REELEYES DAT DEY AL SUK!?

Arnett Moultrie Mississippi State Miami
2011 JaJuan Johnson Purdue New Jersey
2010 Jordan Crawford Xavier New Jersey
2009 DeMarre Carroll Missouri Memphis
2008 Darrell Arthur Kansas Portland
2007 Aaron Afflalo UCLA Detroit
2006 Sergio Rodriguez Spain Portland
2005 Linas Kleiza Missouri So. Portland
2004 Sasha Vujacic Slovenia 1984 LA Lakers
2003 Kendrick Perkins Beaumont, TX HSSr. Memphis
2002 John Salmons MiamiSr. San Antonio
2001 Samuel Dalembert Seton Hall So. Philadelphia
2000 Primoz Brezec Slovenia Indiana
1999 Jumaine Jones Georgia So. Atlanta
1998 Vladimir Stepania Ljubljana Seattle
1997 Jacque Vaughn Kansas Utah
1996 Brian Evans Indiana Orlando
1995 Mario Bennett Arizona State Phoenix
1994 Brooks Thompson Oklahoma State Orlando
1993 Malcolm Mackey Georgia Tech Phoenix
1992 Byron Houston Oklahoma State Chicago
1991 Pete Chilcutt North Carolina Sacramento
1990 Elden Campbell Clemson LA Lakers
1989 Kenny Battle Illinois Detroit
1988 Shelton Jones St. John's San Antonio
1987 Nate Blackwell Temple San Antonio
1986 Dennis Rodman SE Oklahoma State Detroit
1985 Dwayne McClain Villanova Indiana
1984 Ron Anderson Fresno State Cleveland
1983 John Garris BostonCollege Cleveland
1982 Fred Roberts Brigham Young Milwaukee
1981 Howard Wood Tennessee Utah

lol.
 
Do you know what the following names have in common:

Joe Smith
Purvis Ellison
Mark Workman
Andy Tonkovich
Bill McGill
Kwame Brown
Kent Benson
Michael Olowokandi
Greg Oden
LaRue Martin

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, they were all #1 NBA draft picks and they all sucked. If we win the lottery we should trade the pick if we are offered anything better than a bag of chips, because as you can clearly see, sometimes the #1 pick does not work out.

Greg Oden didnt suck because of basketball reasons unlike most of the other guys on that list. I think that statement is very shortsighted...

Different note:
I don't think the draft is a crapshoot, but rather that GMs like to gamble. If you find that special player late in the draft he'll propel the trajectory of your current roster in a different way than an average, but productive player would have.

Some GMs nowadays focus on market inefficiencies and trends.
There have been 3 big trends in the last decade since the league found out that (advanced) numbers dont lie.
1) Team defense. It's not a problem if you can't stay in front of a lot of guys in the league. But you gotta try to force him to a point where he shoots at a lower %. Individual defense is only a problem if you're up against the top10 offensive players in the world. You specifically need guys for these assignments if your best players is worse than the opponents best player.
2) Long range shooting. Nuff said.
3) Multi layered attack schemes. "Old" offenses partially had that as well like the triangle, but in a way too predictable way.
Simple pick and rolls are also too predictable unless your ballhandlers are really dangerous shooters off the dribble(compare: Curry, Steph; Nash, Steve). These pin down schemes for guys who aren't the best ballhandlers that enable them to get to the rim with 1 or 2 dribbles and give them a headstart are super nice.
I don't know who did them first(Probably San Antonio, but Ginobili is an awesome ballhandler without a headstart, so IDK)
I noticed them first with the Raptors when I realized how Casey let his guys run Horns last season and if it didnt generate a good shot or a gap to hit a rolling big to the rim, you could use it to free up DeMar DeRozan, who is not careful with the ball at all, to become an efficient scorer.
Since then Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard, Arron Afflalo(Orlando), Wes Matthews have found ways to elevate their careers to new highs and added unprecedented value to their respective teams.
 
The draft can definitely be a crapshoot, but if you can find a good player, the advantages are monumental compared to trading for a player with a MUCH bigger salary and on a short deal. The salary cap makes it mandatory for teams to find cheap talent, and the best way to do that is through the draft.

So, you take the risk that one if 14 will end up being an ok player (Burks). OR, you pay a little more and guarantee the pick becomes a starter. Easy choice. IF you can trade it for a player like Barnes or Batum, you do it. You don't think twice.
 
You're overrating Barnes quite a bit, and rating Batum on what he has been, instead of what he currently is.

Have you watched Barnes this post season? I am not over-rating him. I'm saying he is better than anyone we could draft at 12, and better than Burks or Hood, which he is. That isn't over-rating him. That's being smart.
 
Green, don't you know there is injustice in the world that you should be devoting yourself to?

But seriously, on June 25th the Jazz will have the #1 overall pick. We're in it to win it bitches!

I made it very clear that I don't give a **** and anyone pretending to is lying.
 
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