Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.

[BENTLEY]

You make it sound like the original writings were taken from Greek and then translated into English. Voila, the New Testament.

Yep. It was Wycliffe who first translated the New Testament from Greek into English in the 1380s. 1 step.

 

[BENTLEY]

Lots of contradictions in numbers in the OT. Too lazy to look many of them up. Descriptions of the same battles talk of 4000 horsemen, or 40,000 horsemen, or 7,000 foot soldiers or 700, etc. Can't remember the exact numbers. These are likely transcription errors that have persisted.

The Book of Numbers? This rebuttal is vague and you're too lazy to bother so...

 

[framer]

One of these is wrong. . .

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Also, Jesus did not die 3 times:

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."


God is seen:

"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God cannot be seen:

"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)

There are more, but these 3 are enough to prove the point.

 

[framer]

I'll do my best.

This is from religion facts, just a site with the basic outlines of all religions:

That's saying that through our works, our deeds, we can earn our salvation.

Here's the 3rd Article of Faith:

These seem to contradict what Paul wrote when he said that we are saved by grace alone, so that no man may boast of his works. Now I'm not saying works are bad, they certainly are necessary. James says that our faith is dead if we have no works, but that does not mean that our works lead to salvation, but that grace leads to salvation which leads to works.

Now I'm reading a Mormon article from one of the leaders in 1981 on this subject, and I see more that contradicts the Bible. Apparently there is the belief that children cannot sin. This would contradict Romans 3:23, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Emphasis is mine). Our sinful, carnal nature does not allow us to earn our salvation through works, for the only way to earn it would to be perfect, and that is impossible.

Salvation is a wonderful gift that we have been given, don't folly and think that it's something you can earn. Take, accept the gift from Jesus Christ and follow his commandments, for He said, "If you love me you will obey me." (Jesus was kinda legalistic like that).

You need to outline the fourth article also which outlines those laws and ordinances:

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The faith is there and is the first principle upon which all others rest. None of the rest is possible without it. Repentance is the next and is VERY important both to Mormons and Biblically. You cannot skip over repentance and call yourself a Christian. You just can't. Baptism is required throughout the New Testament. The laying on of hands thing is more Mormon, but has scriptural roots. Basically Mormons think Jesus was serious when he tells people they must repent and that command wasn't countermanded by a later interpretation of Paul. "Works" are an ongoing struggle to fulfill this requirement which in turn strengthens faith. Faith is not an ordinance, it is something you develop continually, and each step brings you closer to God whose grace makes repentance possible.

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[RandyForRubio]

As I have mentioned several times, works are a sign we are believers, but they do not make us believers.

As for baptism, you mentioned that it is required throughout the NT, but I have to ask you, was the man on the cross next to Jesus baptized? Again, we are not saved by our works but through grace. The Bible could not be more clear.

 

[b_line]

I

I'm not Mormon, but yes. According to everyone I know that is accurate.
Not that I was asked, but I believe the Bible is inspired but written/re-written by fallible men (albeit also inspired).
In my way of belief, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, I get what is needed, for me, at that time, when I seek Him through His Word.

This is petty much exactly the way Mormons believe about in the bible. Uncanny.

 

[b_line]

So if Mormons believe parts of the Bible to be inaccurate, then why is it still considered a holy book? Also, how do you know which part is accurate and which isn't? Saying one part is inaccurate discredits the entire thing, IMO.

I think the word Mormons use is incomplete. It's not necessarily incorrect, as much as there are parts that they believe have been omitted through error or through purposeful removing to control a certain population.

The most important thing that you should understand based on what I am getting from your comments is that Mormons believe in what is in the bible, but they do not believe it to be a complete and final testament of Jesus Christ. In mormon teachings, the bible is as important as any of the other scripture like the Book of Mormon, modern prophets and apostles, etc.

 

[b_line]

As I have mentioned several times, works are a sign we are believers, but they do not make us believers.

As for baptism, you mentioned that it is required throughout the NT, but I have to ask you, was the man on the cross next to Jesus baptized? Again, we are not saved by our works but through grace. The Bible could not be more clear.

This might help in explaining the mormon position re works:

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are:
1. Faith in the lord Jesus christ
2. Repentance.

If you have not faith, your repentance (works) is meaningless. It does not get you anywhere. To say that Mormons do not believe in grace is ignoring that the most basic tenet of Mormonism is faith in the lord and savior Jesus christ and his divine intervention and mission to redeem all of us from our fallen states. In my belief in the lds religion, faith has been the most important driving factor in following Christ. In my mind, this is no different than your belief in the grace of God.

 

[framer]

As I have mentioned several times, works are a sign we are believers, but they do not make us believers.

As for baptism, you mentioned that it is required throughout the NT, but I have to ask you, was the man on the cross next to Jesus baptized? Again, we are not saved by our works but through grace. The Bible could not be more clear.

Mormons can explain this. How do you reconcile that with:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In Mark 16:16 Jesus says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Seems pretty damn clear to me and trumps your anecdote. . .

 

[framer]

b-line is better at this than I am. He has the helm.

 

[LogGrad98]

I've never heard anyone give a good rebuttal to James 2 in regards to the whole faith vs works debate. It is as clear as can be and everyone I've been in aa discussionwith anyone they always say, in effect, "nuh uh" repeat that grace alone saves then skip the whole thing. I would be really interested in hearing someone's opinion of how you reconcile some so clearly written as James 2 with grace alone saves.

 

[BENTLEY]

I've never heard anyone give a good rebuttal to James 2 in regards to the whole faith vs works debate. It is as clear as can be and everyone I've been in aa discussionwith anyone they always say, in effect, "nuh uh" repeat that grace alone saves then skip the whole thing. I would be really interested in hearing someone's opinion of how you reconcile some so clearly written as James 2 with grace alone saves.

I mentioned James in one of my long posts - maybe it was too long to read - as the only spot in the Bible mormons cite to prove that we are saved by works, and not grace alone. But here's some Paul to contradict that:
Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So Paul here is explicit that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works (so we don't become prideful). We none of us can earn our salvation - it is a gift from God through faith. (he even mentions "good works" here, but not that we are saved by them - he's explicit that we are not saved by works)

So what about James? Doesn't James contradict this? Is this a Bible contradiction? This debate with mormons goes on endlessly. I explained it, I think PKM explained it too. I'll try again: James was addressing those Christians who'd gone too far in trusting they were saved by grace that they didn't do anything good for anyone - they didn't feed His sheep, as it were. And James was saying their faith was dead - they never really had faith because if they did have faith, works would follow. This is not in conflict with Paul but rather in each instance these apostles were addressing issues back in the early days of the church. So they stressed particulars specific to those people. These letters were written for them (firstly) so it's helpful to know the context, what was going on at the time. Get a Bible Study guide.

But it's important to stress, as Paul did many times, that our works can earn nothing but death. Our best deeds are as filthy rags. When His apostles called Jesus "good Rabbi" he replied to them "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." Luke 18:19, Mark 10:18. Even Jesus rejected them calling Him good - and if Jesus isn't good then we sure as hell aren't. This passage really struck me - that Jesus asked "why do you call Me good?" ...Huh? did I read that right? So why did He say this? Is it because He'd taken on the flesh, and since the flesh is corrupted, He rejected the idea of being called good? I'm not meaning to speculate - I think too many do speculate rather than study the Word - but I'm just sharing my surprise and wonder about this response from Jesus.

But He also said I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Me. His name is the only name that will provide us passage into His presence. Not the name we were given in the Temple. You don't need to remember that one.