Stephen Jackson calls out Utah fans now.

[Jazz Spazz]

I think a lot of LDS feel this way. But there are also a number of LDS who conflate their love for the institution with their nationalist patriotism.



This gets to the heart of the problem in Utah. I lived in California for six years, and Seattle for three years. I completely agree that the LDS religious culture is different outside of Utah, and the reason is important: Utah is basically Italy for the LDS church, and Salt Lake City is the equivalent of Rome. So the LDS experience is certainly different here because the religious community is in close proximity to not only the hierarchy of the church, but also their extended families which overlaps keenly with the bloodlines from the original gangsta Mormons that arrived here in 1847 straight outta Nauvoo.

The LDS people that move to SLC from outside of that Venn diagram always seem to have a difficult time fitting in with the LDS that grew up here, and the reason is that there is a long tradition of prestige and cache here that comes with being associated with that group. Being related to a Romney, a Marriott, a Kimball, a Dansie, Etc., Etc., puts one into a separate & revered category, and ultimately determines the circles that you associate with. They don't mix with outsiders eagerly, and never have, because the roots of their arrival here coincides with being originally being outsiders that absolutely got their asses kicked out of the US by roaming mobs.

That caste system that exists in the LDS community is the problem here, not the church per se. There are a lot of traditions extant in that group that outsiders do not hold on to. Old doctrines, stuff like that. Some of that material directly relates to the racism extant in LDS history. Some of them still disagree with lifting the ban on blacks.



I think it really depends on who your grand folks are, and what they are interested in getting across to you.



"Most" is likely correct. But most LDS was never the issue here. For some, there is certainly racism both blatant and implicit. Add that to a community that is largely averse to reading actual history books, or even apprehending its own history, and what you get is a group that is forced to gain its understanding from its own traditions.

When one discusses the police, it's the bad apples that truly give the rest of the force a bad name. The LDS people have a similar difficulty in disassociating themselves from their worst examples because they are trained to respond to criticism by defending the brand instead of doing the difficult work of rooting out the monolithic traditions that have historically done them harm. I'm not going to mock your testimony, but I will insist that education is the real cure here.

Thanks for replying. I do think a few "bad apples" do give others in the same city, religion, culture, family, whatever... a bad name.

 

[Jahquan3]

I've heard this sort of thing for years. Sadly a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

 

[framer]

Can you rephrase this? I'm having trouble getting a hold of your point.

As to your last sentence: I agree that absolute cultural relativism is a false concept and that cultures can be better than others. This truth is somewhat unfortunate for Utah Mormon culture

Case in point.

If you are going to argue that all cultures are equally valid and "good" you are either just being a troll or you truly are a moron. I don't believe you ARE a moron, so c'mon now. You really think that culturally, Nazism is a valid choice? How about the human sacrificing aspect of Aztec culture?

On a more specific note, the American culture of providing foldable toilet paper and broom handles longer than 3 feet long is a far superior cultural innovation than what happens in Russia.

 

[Safetydan]

If you are going to argue that all cultures are equally valid and "good" you are either just being a troll or you truly are a moron. I don't believe you ARE a moron, so c'mon now. You really think that culturally, Nazism is a valid choice? How about the human sacrificing aspect of Aztec culture?

On a more specific note, the American culture of providing foldable toilet paper and broom handles longer than 3 feet long is a far superior cultural innovation than what happens in Russia.

Re-read my post youngblood.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

I've heard this sort of thing for years. Sadly a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

I purposefully did not use the word "few". I think it's considerable. But the LDS culture that comes from the Nauvoo group is probably more like a 6th of what constitutes church membership these days, so it is also not "most".

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

On a more specific note, the American culture of providing foldable toilet paper and broom handles longer than 3 feet long is a far superior cultural innovation than what happens in Russia.

You sound like you had it pretty rough, but techno-innovations do not make one culture "superior" to another.

We taught a Russian in California, and he went out of his way to let us know that he agreed with the Priesthood ban on blacks (even though this was in 1993). But when we asked him about his country, he described rich traditions associated with food, dancing, and folklore. He lamented the "nothing" culture here in the US that is focused on consumerism.

Had I known about their brooms, perhaps I would have brought it up.

 

[Deleted member 95]

Btw Stephen Jackson signed that jail suit picture after the game and mentioned the poster wielder was not racist and a great guy

Sent from my SM-T580 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Btw Stephen Jackson signed that jail suit picture after the game and mentioned the poster wielder was not racist and a great guy

Sent from my SM-T580 using JazzFanz mobile app

Stahp, your ruining it.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

There may be something in what you say here, for some missionaries that go out. I have a hard time generalizing to saying "the majority" on any blanket statements like this. For sure there is a difficulty in truly being in or immersed in a culture when you are protected by a bubble of rules and the fact that you are are teaching the gospel 24/7. It's more like being a boat while the river is the culture, vs swimming in it. Missionaries are taught to love the people, not necessarily to love the culture. I know that in many cases loving the culture will come naturally if you actually do love the people. To truly care about someone you need to understand them, and to understand them it stands to reason that you should understand their culture, then understand where they stand in regards to it, and even those two things are only a small part of the equation.

I don't think that a culture needs to convert to "Mormonism". You can be a member of the LDS Church and still be a part of your own culture, even if that part is changed a bit. Are you specifically talking about Utah LDS culture, or LDS church culture in general? I believe it is quite different pretty much everywhere. The LDS culture in Cali is different than that in Utah, than that on the east coast, more different even still in other countries. My experiences seem to be different than yours, so I'm thinking the truth of it in general is varied with data points all over the place as opposed to the data point of what you feel is the case for all missionaries.

Its still an individual thing that is hard to generalize to a whole group like this

Also about culture, it is constantly in flux, and different based on location. Culture moves, migrates, and changes constantly. I also don't think gaining a love for a culture has a huge impact on being or not being racist. I also think pretty much everybody tends to think their own beliefs, culture, country, team, neighborhood, family, friends, socks are better than others out there, but that does not mean they hate the other ones out there. That is something learned. The LDS Church teaches all members to love other people, and the idea that members of the LDS church feel they are right in that it is the one church with the authority of God and has more Truth than other churches does not mean people of other faiths or no faith are less than it's members as individuals. I'm a Jazz fan, I like the team, the players, the coaches, the owners, the organization, the city... much better than other teams, players, organizations, cities. Does that mean I think the Jazz are better than the Rockets or the Warriors this year? No. Does it mean I hate the other teams because I like my team better? No. In the same vein, why would me liking my Church and believing it is true and the best for me automatically mean I am better than everyone else and that I am now a "passive racist" or whatever it was termed? I know it's not a perfect comparison, but it catches the main points.

I see what some of you think about the LDS Church, and members of the church, and pushing the idea that there is some sort of passive racism or whatever you want to call it going on.

I disagree. Are there individuals that are church members that are racist, probably. Is that something taught by the Church, not to my understanding. Are there things taught that could be taken that way, I can see that because I have seen numbers of things taken a different way than my view of what is intended. Are there portions of the Bible and Book of Mormon that talk about dark skin, and curses, and markings to distinguish from the people of God, yes. Does that mean that people with lighter or darker skin are better or worse than someone else, no it does not. Was there a time in church history when people with dark skin were not allowed to hold the Priesthood, yes there was. Do I fully understand why this was the case, I do not. Do I think the church leaders were perfect and made every right decision in their lives, no way.

This next part, I know some of you will scoff and mock, but it is true for me so I will say it.

While I don't have answers to all of these things and some of the difficult things that have happened in the history of the church. I do know for myself that God is real, that Jesus is truly the Christ taught in the Bible and Book of Mormon, that Joseph Smith did see God and Christ and did do necessary things to bring Christs church back with the organization and proper authority. There are other things I know that are a foundation for me which allow me to take the time I need to work out the rest, and some of these more difficult/challenging questions. With what I do know from God, I feel comfortable with taking time figuring out the rest following the pattern I learned in gaining what I have already from God.

I also know that all people no matter the color, culture, age, gender are equally as important and loved by God. I don't see color other than at times as an easy way to narrow down the possibilities in Utah when trying to describe a person to another person when hair color, eye color, clothing doesn't help.

I know some people would like to label me a racist because I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and believe it's teachings, but I refute that. I also understand some of you will claim I am in this bucket that thinks I am not, but "really am", and I think that is weak.

I like DM, Favors, pretty much the whole team and coaching staff. I don't like Hayward, Lyles, Burke, Kanter. My dislike comes from individual experiences toward our team & State from them or their crews. ijazz was annoying.

I personally think most of the LDS Jazz fans are like me in this. There is no blatant, or hidden racism. I think the theories and racism litmus tests, and dogwhistle conversations are flawed, blurry, and steered toward seeing something.

Sorry/notsorry for the book. Please excuse the spelling, grammar, and readability errors, I'm out of time and my editor is not available.

Well put.

To add, I've personally never heard of a returned missionary who didnt fall in love with the culture. They all want to take their parents there and show the place off as tour guide.

Missionaries live as the locals live from my understanding. Those in Southern Peru chop their own firewood, and chop wood for others, eyc.

 

[framer]

You sound like you had it pretty rough, but techno-innovations do not make one culture "superior" to another.

We taught a Russian in California, and he went out of his way to let us know that he agreed with the Priesthood ban on blacks (even though this was in 1993). But when we asked him about his country, he described rich traditions associated with food, dancing, and folklore. He lamented the "nothing" culture here in the US that is focused on consumerism.

Had I known about their brooms, perhaps I would have brought it up.

Russian culture is tough because a lot of it was destroyed by Communism. I mean you have a group of citizens that always held to the traditions and others where the culture was forcibly driven out of them to conform to Marx. Russian food was "meh" but the dancing and folklore were top notch. Most Russians were pretty racist in my experience, although because of its vastness there are a lot of ethnic backgrounds amongst the populace.

Obviously I didn't live in all of Russia and I didn't live rural, so I missed a lot.

I actually served my mission in the Ozark mountains which is a culture of a whole different sort.

 

[MeloTheJazzKiller]

Is the answer "because Nick Collison sucks?" Because that's what my money is on.

You'd lose your money. Not the right answer.

I suggest you Google pictures of Collison and Westbrick. You might see a difference and therein lies the answer to why those Jazz fans went after Westbrick and not Collison.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

You'd lose your money. Not the right answer.

I suggest you Google pictures of Collison and Westbrick. You might see a difference and therein lies the answer to why those Jazz fans went after Westbrick and not Collison.

I just did, and still no clue. Can you help me out?