Conley is a chemistry problem and we should trade him

[latin jazz]

Please stop with the ******** assertion that Bogie specifically said he would never come there without Conley on the roster. That's already been debunked. There is no way to say he wouldn't have come with "anyone else on that list".

Reading comprehension my friend!

Acquiring some of those max players would have inhibited our ability to sign Boggie. Cap space buddy! There was no scenario where you could land a max player via free agency and then land Boggie. Not everything has to be about Conley.

 

[latin jazz]

Right now sure, for the last few games. At the start of the year it had a big impact.

I think it was more to do with Ingles playing with Davis and a crappy bench. He missed Favors big time. Now that he runs pick n roll with Rudy, he is more like himself, finding space to operate and use his bag of tricks for easy layups. Davis was terrible.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think it was more to do with Ingles playing with Davis and a crappy bench. He missed Favors big time. Now that he runs pick n roll with Rudy, he is more like himself, finding space to operate and use his bag of tricks for easy layups. Davis was terrible.

Ingles needs a pick and roll partner... I don't think Mike is disrupting Joe... I'm going to watch more closely to see if there is an issue when those two are on the floor.

I just see Mike getting these open looks from three and just missing them... occasionally he has over passed or taken too much time to move the ball and it disrupted the flow a bit, but Joe does that too at times.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm starting to believe we'd be better off or at least not worse off just having Mudiay out there. If you can move Conley and get something else you kind of get Mudiay back. I'm trying not to get too crazy here, but even in his good games he just got hot... and I just haven't had many moments where I felt like "Mike is so damn good". When Hill was here I felt like there were so many nights where he was just awesome and it went beyond the numbers. He was in and out of the lineup and adjusting too... I don't feel like the front office should bury their head in the sand and just think he will come around.

 

[fishonjazz]

I love Brogdon. But Indy keeps Bogey if we acquired him.

Another interesting target was Dinwiddie but he became unavailable once the Nets decided to move on from DLo.

Everything points out that the Jazz front office was pretty set on acquiring Conley early (according to Tony Jones, Conley was "their man" all along)

Agreed with your last sentence. I just think (and thought at the time) that they were stupid for trading for Conley.

Your first sentence is an assumption.

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[latin jazz]

Ingles needs a pick and roll partner... I don't think Mike is disrupting Joe... I'm going to watch more closely to see if there is an issue when those two are on the floor.

I just see Mike getting these open looks from three and just missing them... occasionally he has over passed or taken too much time to move the ball and it disrupted the flow a bit, but Joe does that too at times.

That's a good approach. I've been watching the two and Conley is mostly relegated to a secondary ball handling/spot up shooting from the corner role when Rudy/Joe share the floor and run pick n roll. Something to continue watching before making strong statements about how one impacts the other.

 

[nateboz]

Obviously, even shorthanded, both are better than most of the teams we faced during the winning streak. They have good coaches and made life difficult for us. The Spurs have been irregular but also had some impressive wins in January (Bucks, Toronto, Boston, etc).

I would highly disagree. Look at the rosters again.

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[Handlogten's Heros]

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=r3q9jk6

Here is the trade if we are serious about winning a title... costs us some tax in two years and is a big financial commitment... I'd rather spend 45M in year three on CP than waste it on Mike the next two years while hurting our chances the next two years.

If you are absolutely convinced that CP is not a good fit for the system and it won't work then do the trade directly with NY... maybe just change which expirings you try to get. If CP is such a bad fit... why the hell did we get Conley? I just think CP is a much better version of what we could get from CP and he covers some of the issues we have.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

there are only really two teams I could see having interest in Mike... NY and Minny. If Minny would do Dieng and RoCo for conley I'd consider it. I might try to route RoCo elsewhere for something better because I think he's over rated.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

No doubt it hurts knowing that Memphis got Brandon Clarke with our pick. Not to mention the cool $32 million that could be used elsewhere.

It really just doesn't seem like Conley, even when playing well* fulfills much of a need for the team. We don't need an inefficient (he is, even when 'good') small PG who needs the ball. It's probably the absolute last thing we need to be honest.

*Say, 70% of Memphis Mike.

It makes sense why we didn't just immediately hand Mitchell the keys to the kingdom. But I think the wrong choice was made, and now we have to live with it. I'll hold out hope that he can give us some production come playoff time. But it's hard to not just be worried about every minute he's on the court until we see otherwise.

Locke saying "This team NEEDS Mike Conley to make noise" rings hollow to me. Maybe we NEED him to be good because we dumped so many assets to get him and what we've seen so far is just a nightmare. But there is no question that our best ball this year has been we he is not part of the equation.

 

[latin jazz]

Agreed with your last sentence. I just think (and thought at the time) that they were stupid for trading for Conley.

Your first sentence is an assumption.

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Sure, every comment on JFC about free agency scenarios is an assumption/guess. But it's reasonable to think landing the two was very very difficult. Some reasons:

• Cap wise, it was impossible for us the create the room for both Brogdon and Boggie at their current salaries. We had room for one max player at best. Combined they make about 3-4M more per year than we could afford. For what happened to Neto, we can assume Boggie was not going to accept a paycut. Was Brogdon willing to play for 16M instead of 20M?
• The Pacers wanted to resign Boggie. Once Boggie commited to Utah, the Pacers almost simultaneously used the money on Brogdon. Owining Boggie's bird rights, it was plausible for the Pacers to acquire both. We didn't have that luxury. They just got cheap and didn't want to give Boggie an extra year (luxuray tax concerns might also play a role).
  
• Brogdon was a sign and trade, which point us to believe he already had discussions with Indy beforehand. Was Utah his preferred destination? Probably not. Usually, front offices do their homework before FA and they know which targets are more realistic than others.
• All in all, the Jazz probably concluded that Conley was the best PG available via trade or FA.

So, i think is safer to assume Brogdon + Boggie was pretty unlikely to happen.

 

[Truth]

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=r3q9jk6
If CP is such a bad fit... why the hell did we get Conley?

Exactly. Team needs a 4/5, not another guard/wing. * I'm just going to log in once a day and say this over and over for the foreseeable future.



* (although a big 3 that could effectively be converted to 4 could work)

 

[latin jazz]

I would highly disagree. Look at the rosters again.

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Even shorthanded, the Rockets kicked our ***. Is not only the players but their system/schemes makes us struggle.

 

[nateboz]

Even shorthanded, the Rockets kicked our ***. Is not only the players but their system/schemes makes us struggle.

Team chemistry is off when Mike's on the active roster. I'm curious as to why.
Jingles looked tired when mike was playing the first part of the year, mike got hurt and Joe looked like Joe. Now Mike's back and Joe looks tired again. That's really odd.
Now look at how many guys were playing better and better when Mudiay was the backup.
Rudy was becoming Shaq, Mitchell was getting 30 easily, Bogey put up 30 like 8 times, jingles numbers doubled, Niang started making everything, and Clarkson was putting up historic stats something like 125 offensive rating.
The question is why is everyone playing worse as soon as mike is back? I don't wanna hear that the schedule got hard. We've been playing teams missing there top players. The only good team has been Dallas.

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[Eminence]

CP3
Horford
Covington/Dieng

Those are the 3 deals I'd be interested in. Maybe something with Miami too. The Knicks bums are just that, bums.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No doubt it hurts knowing that Memphis got Brandon Clarke with our pick. Not to mention the cool $32 million that could be used elsewhere.

It really just doesn't seem like Conley, even when playing well* fulfills much of a need for the team. We don't need an inefficient (he is, even when 'good') small PG who needs the ball. It's probably the absolute last thing we need to be honest.

*Say, 70% of Memphis Mike.

It makes sense why we didn't just immediately hand Mitchell the keys to the kingdom. But I think the wrong choice was made, and now we have to live with it. I'll hold out hope that he can give us some production come playoff time. But it's hard to not just be worried about every minute he's on the court until we see otherwise.

Locke saying "This team NEEDS Mike Conley to make noise" rings hollow to me. Maybe we NEED him to be good because we dumped so many assets to get him and what we've seen so far is just a nightmare. But there is no question that our best ball this year has been we he is not part of the equation.

Last year when we ran DM at PG I started a thread stating he's the pgotf… With Joe and DM you have a good amount of creation and handling... in the playoffs probably need a bit more, but long term I wanted us to build with someone bigger than DM as his back court mate... making him kind of the point guard. We should have used the assets and space to try and get someone that's a better fit long term with that idea. We also could have just given cap space, a prospect, and one pick (not two)… where else were they going to send him. Even then if his shooting splits were similar to last year we'd be ballin even harder... but... he's *****in the bed. Woof.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

CP3
Horford
Covington/Dieng

Those are the 3 deals I'd be interested in. Maybe something with Miami too. The Knicks bums are just that, bums.

They have a couple interesting wings... the cap space the expirings could provide might be useful. I find Frankie Smokes mildly intriguing because he's a great defender and NY is not a team that develops players. Like if his shooting picked up a little he'd be kinda useful and he's a younger dude.

Taj would be an upgrade at backup center. the other guys are bad and we won't want Morris.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Sure, every comment on JFC about free agency scenarios is an assumption/guess. But it's reasonable to think landing the two was very very difficult. Some reasons:

• Cap wise, it was impossible for us the create the room for both Brogdon and Boggie at their current salaries. We had room for one max player at best. Combined they make about 3-4M more per year than we could afford. For what happened to Neto, we can assume Boggie was not going to accept a paycut. Was Brogdon willing to play for 16M instead of 20M?
• The Pacers wanted to resign Boggie. Once Boggie commited to Utah, the Pacers almost simultaneously used the money on Brogdon. Owining Boggie's bird rights, it was plausible for the Pacers to acquire both. We didn't have that luxury. They just got cheap and didn't want to give Boggie an extra year (luxuray tax concerns might also play a role).
  
• Brogdon was a sign and trade, which point us to believe he already had discussions with Indy beforehand. Was Utah his preferred destination? Probably not. Usually, front offices do their homework before FA and they know which targets are more realistic than others.
• All in all, the Jazz probably concluded that Conley was the best PG available via trade or FA.

So, i think is safer to assume Brogdon + Boggie was pretty unlikely to happen.

From what I have heard about Brogdon it seems he wanted to have the ball a lot too... like he may not have wanted to come back to Milwaukee and someone wasn’t sure how him and Vic would mesh now that he’s back. I thought Malcolm would have been an ideal fit but it may not have been as seemless.

We could have figured out the cap stuff... someone would have wanted Jae... maybe even Milwaukee... I don’t think it’s reasonable to think we could have gotten both Bogie and Malcolm.

More likely we could have got someone like satoransky and Bogey. I think Sato works well next to DM. We’d preserve the assets (can’t say we would take Clarke though... they also moved up for a small cost). Just wonder if you have Sato and the assets/flexibility then we can add something else at 3/4 if need be or find a better backup 5.

IDK but there were lots of options.

 

[latin jazz]

The question is why is everyone playing worse as soon as mike is back? I don't wanna hear that the schedule got hard. We've been playing teams missing there top players. The only good team has been Dallas.

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Easy about Joe: no offseason, looked tired from the beginning. Then he had to come off the bench: struggled mightily without a roll partner and playing alongside terrible bench players. As a starter, gets more confortable playing with Rudy and more space around him. Problem: he is also playing major minutes, about 33mpg (in late december he had too many games around 38-39). That's too much given his age and role. In early January his minutes start decreasing. At this point he is probably tired and it shows with his defense. Ideally, he shouldn't be playing more than 30mpg.

Conley came back and we still won 4 games in a row. Why did we lose? It wasn't the offense (except against the Rockets, where it was both O&D). It was the atrocious perimeter defense the last couple of games. You don't win many games against anyone with that effort. Joe, Bojan and Royce were terrible defensively. How is that Conley's fault? And btw, we might lose tonight on the road on a B2B if we don't bring our A+ game.

 

[latin jazz]

From what I have heard about Brogdon it seems he wanted to have the ball a lot too... like he may not have wanted to come back to Milwaukee and someone wasn’t sure how him and Vic would mesh now that he’s back. I thought Malcolm would have been an ideal fit but it may not have been as seemless.

We could have figured out the cap stuff... someone would have wanted Jae... maybe even Milwaukee... I don’t think it’s reasonable to think we could have gotten both Bogie and Malcolm.

More likely we could have got someone like satoransky and Bogey. I think Sato works well next to DM. We’d preserve the assets (can’t say we would take Clarke though... they also moved up for a small cost). Just wonder if you have Sato and the assets/flexibility then we can add something else at 3/4 if need be or find a better backup 5.

IDK but there were lots of options.

It takes two to tango. Perhaps Brogdon never considered Utah. So even if we wanted him, it was a moot point. As fans we can't know for sure but the FO probably did their homework.

Yeah, it was rumored that we liked Sato. But yup, too many scenarios. Almost no one expected Conley, Davis or even Green to be a bad fit. Hindsight is a blessing.