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Positive tweets on the lockout Oct 27th

Darkwing Duck said:
Uh...there are around 240 Division I football schools.
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Uh...your source?

Maybe you're including Division II-A.

I am relying on the internet (still more bona fide to your referenceless "Uh"); here is another site that has declared or recycled the same 120ish number:
https://collegefootball.procon.org/

D-II might matter to this conversation if a significant number of them actually make it to the NFL. I don't know that one way or the other.
 
Cyrone Torbin said:
You are truly a clown. I end this argument now and declare myself the winner because you are clearly to dense to realize your faulty logic and responding to your unnecessarily long post is a major pain in my ***.
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Excellent. You have resorted to ad hominem, probably because you have little more to add.

Meanwhile, you have failed to satisfactorily respond to the notion that there are dozens of pro-quality players for each position in both the NFL and the NBA, and that the mere 45 to 60 positions available per year (give or take 15) is smaller than the supply of NBA-quality players. Supply > demand. Supply (the owners) have the advantage--if they manage it well, which they haven't done as well as the NFL owners.

A significant contributor of the poor quality of some players and teams in the NBA has to do with the less pre-NBA training that NBAers usually have vs. the NFL. Even your TE examples don't work fully; one of them played basketball in college, which means that he still got athletic training (and, to your credit, had time for physical maturity). Still, with only a year of college football, he was a far cry from a 19-year-old football player trying to wander his way into the NFL.
 
InGameStrategy said:
Uh...your source?

Maybe you're including Division II-A.

I am relying on the internet (still more bona fide to your referenceless "Uh"); here is another site that has declared or recycled the same 120ish number:
https://collegefootball.procon.org/

D-II might matter to this conversation if a significant number of them actually make it to the NFL. I don't know that one way or the other.
Click to expand...

Around 120 Division I FBS
Around 120 Division I FCS.

There is no Division II-A.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
Around 120 Division I FBS
Around 120 Division I FCS.

There is no Division II-A.
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Good eye, I guess, although it doesn't alter the argument much.

"According to The Sports Network, an entity covering much of the FCS, a total of 17 players from the ranks of the FCS were among the more than 300 players invited to the combine."
https://www.bisonillustrated.com/s.php?s=569

So my unintentional exclusion of the FCS doesn't skew the data too much--lets say (17/300 =) <10%.

Given that I didn't include Division II for basketball, either, it's still somewhat apples to apples.

There is only a handful of D-II players in the NFL; even fewer in the NBA.
https://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_division_2_basketball_players_make_it_to_the_nba_every_year
 
Darkwing Duck said:
I like how you did combine invites and not players actually in the NFL. Nice covering of the ***, though.
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Thanks for the idea, double-D, given that it further supports my argument.

According to the following article, 21 players from the FCS (formerly called Division II, btw) were drafted in 2011, up from 17 predicted.
https://fcsnowfootball.wordpress.com/2011/05/03/fcs-players-taken-in-the-nfl-draft/
If my math serves me correctly, that's 21/(32*7) = less than 10%. What a coincidence--in the same neighborhood percentagewise as the percent invited to the combine that I previously cited.

Further analysis could be made on prior NFL years or on the percentage of undrafted free agents that came from the FCS. I did not uncover a value of total FCS players in the NFL; feel free to do so. But again, thanks for the ideas and info to boost my claims.

Only more ammunition that the supply of potentially pro-quality players far exceeds demand in the NFL. The supply of NBA players is arguably wider, spanning 300+ D-1 college teams plus the entire portion of the world that has pro basketball leagues. Why the owners ever agreed to play them an average of 7 million per year (and more than 25 million maximum annually) is beyond me--and a fundamental reason why the owners are insisting on conditions that protect themselves from overspending.

Such as a strong luxury tax, amnesty clauses, and (close to) a 50-50 split, which is in the neighborhood of the NFL, which shares the pie more widely, given that NFL rosters are bigger than NBA rosters. .
 
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InGameStrategy said:
Thanks for the idea, double-D, given that it further supports my argument.

According to the following article, 21 players from the FCS (formerly called Division II, btw) were drafted in 2011, up from 17 predicted.
https://fcsnowfootball.wordpress.com/2011/05/03/fcs-players-taken-in-the-nfl-draft/
If my math serves me correctly, that's 21/(32*7) = less than 10%. What a coincidence--in the same neighborhood percentagewise as the percent invited to the combine that I previously cited.

Further analysis could be made on prior NFL years or on the percentage of undrafted free agents that came from the FCS. I did not uncover a value of total FCS players in the NFL; feel free to do so. But again, thanks for the ideas and info to boost my claims.
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Amazing. Simply amazing. Now you went from combine invites to draft picks, again avoiding total individuals from FCS in the NFL. Add to it that you say FCS used to be Division II and anything else you say is laughable.

I'd link you here: https://espn.go.com/nfl/college , but I doubt you'd know any FCS team, so I'll just throw the few I know off the top of my head. I do know this does not include practice team players, as former Weber State Wildcat Tim Toone is not on this list and he's on Buffalo's practice squad.

2 from Weber State.

5 from Appalachian State

2 from Cal-Poly

3 from Eastern Washington

2 from North Dakota

3 from North Dakota State

3 from Northern Colorado

1 from Sac. State

1 from South Dakota

4 from South Dakota State

3 from Idaho State

5 from Maine

6 from UMass (transitioning into FBS currently, played in FCS last year)

7 from Montana

3 from Montana State

3 from Portland State

4 from William & Mary

4 from Villanova

3 from Delaware

4 from Harvard

3 from James Madison

Left off a whole bunch. Easily 100 players in the NFL from FCS. There are DII players in the league, too. Abilene Christian has 5 players in the NFL.

But keep insisting that the NBA draws from 300+ DI-schools. The NBA draws from weaker DI conferences much less frequently than the NFL does.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
Amazing. Simply amazing. Now you went from combine invites to draft picks, again avoiding total individuals from FCS in the NFL. Add to it that you say FCS used to be Division II and anything else you say is laughable.

I'd link you here: https://espn.go.com/nfl/college , but I doubt you'd know any FCS team, so I'll just throw the few I know off the top of my head. I do know this does not include practice team players, as former Weber State Wildcat Tim Toone is not on this list and he's on Buffalo's practice squad.

2 from Weber State.

5 from Appalachian State

2 from Cal-Poly

3 from Eastern Washington

2 from North Dakota

3 from North Dakota State

3 from Northern Colorado

1 from Sac. State

1 from South Dakota

4 from South Dakota State

3 from Idaho State

5 from Maine

6 from UMass (transitioning into FBS currently, played in FCS last year)

7 from Montana

3 from Montana State

3 from Portland State

4 from William & Mary

4 from Villanova

3 from Delaware

4 from Harvard

3 from James Madison

Left off a whole bunch. Easily 100 players in the NFL from FCS. There are DII players in the league, too. Abilene Christian has 5 players in the NFL.

But keep insisting that the NBA draws from 300+ DI-schools. The NBA draws from weaker DI conferences much less frequently than the NFL does.
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Darkwing, are you for hire? You continue to provide support for my argument.

For once you provide a source. What's the occasion?

(BTW, it appears that you are a relative expert on which teams are FCS. Kudos! That'll get you far in life. But it would be easy to look that up. I just don't care enough to do so, and I had aggregate sources anyway that you have not countervailed.)

Let's use your info and do the math.

By my count, your list adds up to 71 players, plus some dude from Weber.

The following source lists the NFL as having nearly 1700 players.
https://www.infoplease.com/askeds/total-players-nfl.html

What's 72/1696? Just over 4.2%. If you use 100+ players, it's still <10%.

In other words, based on your data, the NFL has retained less than 10% of its players from half the Division I teams (FCS).

This is consistent with less than 10% of the combine invites being from the FCS.
Which is consistent with less than 10% of the draftees being from the FCS.

And all of this supports my use of only FBS teams in my citing the ratio of labor supply to demand. My argument would still be good when including FCS, but it's better without.

(BTW, my info on the NBA doesn't include "practice team players", either, which would be analogous to the NBADL, given that both have many nondrafted and/or unsigned players who would love a call-up. Further confirmation of the consistency of my analysis, thanks to you.)

Double D, the check's in the mail. Keep it up.
 
And what percentage of NBA players come from the lower half of the 340 colleges you claim the NBA draws from? It'll be more than 10%, right? It has to be, to fit your argument. All high schoolers in the league would have gone to major schools. Hell, even C.J. Miles was slated to go to Texas.

Bottom half conferences would include:

America East
MEAC
Southern
Southland
Patriot
Great West
Northeast
MAAC
Big Sky
Ivy
Atlantic Sun
Big West
Summit
Ohio Valley
SWAC
Big South
 
Darkwing Duck said:
And what percentage of NBA players come from the lower half of the 340 colleges you claim the NBA draws from? It'll be more than 10%, right? It has to be, to fit your argument. All high schoolers in the league would have gone to major schools. Hell, even C.J. Miles was slated to go to Texas.

Bottom half conferences would include:

America East
MEAC
Southern
Southland
Patriot
Great West
Northeast
MAAC
Big Sky
Ivy
Atlantic Sun
Big West
Summit
Ohio Valley
SWAC
Big South
Click to expand...
I continue to invite you to do an analysis of what schools (or conferences) have a history of feeding both sports, but I don't care enough to do so, and such precision doesn't matter to my argument. You can cut the labor supply more precisely if you want.

What only matters to me is that, while pro-level athlete talent is scarce, it's not so scarce that the labor supply (100 or 200 or 300 schools--whichever way you want to cut it--plus the international leagues), cannot fill the 30 to 60 available new spots per year in the NBA. And such a large pool of labor supply does not justify the average NBA salary that is so much higher than any other (major) team sport. If you cut it more precisely, maybe you get down to 10 college players per available spot in the NBA vs. maybe 15 or 20 players per available spot in the NFL, but that's not so much a difference to suggest that the NBA talent is so scarce as to command a substantial premium over the salaries of the NFL or MLB.

The NFL has just done a better job at negotiating it.

And now the NBA has decided that they are going to do a better job, too. Sort of.

But unfortunately that process comes with some short-term pain, because they were poor in negotiating it in the past--just like the NHL, who at one point paid out approximately 2/3 of their revenue in salaries. Given that the NBA is more popular than the NHL, the NBA can still pay out salaries at a 50-50 split that a higher than NHL salaries at 53% to 57% (sliding scale).

Until then, the NBA players are alienating fans and shooting themselves in the foot.
 
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