Holy new avatar. I like the point you raise. It's an interesting topic as there are undocument immigrants who are members of the LDS church.
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Holy new avatar. I like the point you raise. It's an interesting topic as there are undocument immigrants who are members of the LDS church.
It should be but it won't be.
What does that have to do with anything. Are Mormons the only Americans? Even assuming they are you are always going to have you jack Mormons just liek in any group of any kind.
That was basically a stupid attempt at bringing Mormonism into theis topic. You are better than that.
PearlWatson
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An inconvenient truth that seems to escape so many Americans and Utahns with pioneer heritage:
When fleeing Nauvoo, did the Mormon Pioneers stop to think about who owned the Salt Lake territory? Did they file the proper paperwork, pay the correct fees, and wait for approval? Seems a bit hypocritical now that we criticize Mexicans for doing the same thing that so many in our families did... Moral of the story? Folks in desperate/crappy situations will act desperately in order to survive. As the LDS church has indicated, compassion and understanding are key for this issue.
For Americans in general, how can we get pissed off at immigrants, call them "invaders", and scream and shout about losing jobs/property/paying for healthcare and education, when we didn't give a damn about those who were here before us? Just because we could defeat them with guns and disease, move them onto reservations, and take away their lives, liberties, lands, and pursuits of happiness, doesn't mean that what we did was right.
Could you imagine the Iroquois Nation (and so many other Native American nations) if they had treated European immigrants the way we're treating Mexicans today? "John Smith, where are your papers? Oh your visa expired? Oh you're doing a good service here? Too bad, go back to England." "Hmmmm you look white and speak with an accent, come with our security and answer a few questions..." "On this continent, we don't speak European languages. If you want to live here, you need to learn the languages we speak here!" "Europeans are a bunch of entitlement crazed lunatics. They're destroying our society. They bring strange diseases which are costing our Native American society greatly. Deport them all!"
I believe in being honest and fair to my fellow man, and yes, that includes those from S. American countries. I support the Dream Act. I also support cutting the BS that it takes to gain citizenship and visas. Regulate better those interviewing to cut the BS questions and the requests for "favors." I remember reading a few years back of an agent at the US Embassy in Brazil who would give out visas for girls who did him "favors." That's BS.
So much of our economy depends on the cheap labor that is provided by these immigrants. So why not make it easier for them to obtain visas and work permits? At UVU a professor spoke about this. Our government is still processing requests for work visas from Mexico from the 90s. Who the hell is going to wait 20+ years to gain the visas/work permits? I understand that these are probably extreme examples and not everyone is going to be delayed that long. But you can't just make people wait for years and years and expect them to NOT immigrate illegally.
How many actually want to live in their native countries while trying to merely gain ground by working here? Many even go back home. Have you ever been to a foreign country? Do you understand how difficult it is to find work there, leave your whole life behind, and start from scratch? Have some sympathy and show some respect for the courage so many of these folks have displayed.
Finally, instead of attacking people, attack those responsible for "illegal immigration." Attack the lazy *** government (who doesn't give out nearly enough visas, make it impossible for so many to come here, and who make it too complicated and expensive) and the businesses who break the laws.
Certainly we must maintain our borders. But by the same token, much can be done to aid in legal immigration, obtaining of citizenship, and making this whole thing a lot better than it is right now.
When fleeing Nauvoo, did the Mormon Pioneers stop to think about who owned the Salt Lake territory? Did they file the proper paperwork, pay the correct fees, and wait for approval? Seems a bit hypocritical now that we criticize Mexicans for doing the same thing that so many in our families did... Moral of the story? Folks in desperate/crappy situations will act desperately in order to survive. As the LDS church has indicated, compassion and understanding are key for this issue.
For Americans in general, how can we get pissed off at immigrants, call them "invaders", and scream and shout about losing jobs/property/paying for healthcare and education, when we didn't give a damn about those who were here before us? Just because we could defeat them with guns and disease, move them onto reservations, and take away their lives, liberties, lands, and pursuits of happiness, doesn't mean that what we did was right.
Could you imagine the Iroquois Nation (and so many other Native American nations) if they had treated European immigrants the way we're treating Mexicans today? "John Smith, where are your papers? Oh your visa expired? Oh you're doing a good service here? Too bad, go back to England." "Hmmmm you look white and speak with an accent, come with our security and answer a few questions..." "On this continent, we don't speak European languages. If you want to live here, you need to learn the languages we speak here!" "Europeans are a bunch of entitlement crazed lunatics. They're destroying our society. They bring strange diseases which are costing our Native American society greatly. Deport them all!"
I believe in being honest and fair to my fellow man, and yes, that includes those from S. American countries. I support the Dream Act. I also support cutting the BS that it takes to gain citizenship and visas. Regulate better those interviewing to cut the BS questions and the requests for "favors." I remember reading a few years back of an agent at the US Embassy in Brazil who would give out visas for girls who did him "favors." That's BS.
So much of our economy depends on the cheap labor that is provided by these immigrants. So why not make it easier for them to obtain visas and work permits? At UVU a professor spoke about this. Our government is still processing requests for work visas from Mexico from the 90s. Who the hell is going to wait 20+ years to gain the visas/work permits? I understand that these are probably extreme examples and not everyone is going to be delayed that long. But you can't just make people wait for years and years and expect them to NOT immigrate illegally.
How many actually want to live in their native countries while trying to merely gain ground by working here? Many even go back home. Have you ever been to a foreign country? Do you understand how difficult it is to find work there, leave your whole life behind, and start from scratch? Have some sympathy and show some respect for the courage so many of these folks have displayed.
Finally, instead of attacking people, attack those responsible for "illegal immigration." Attack the lazy *** government (who doesn't give out nearly enough visas, make it impossible for so many to come here, and who make it too complicated and expensive) and the businesses who break the laws.
Certainly we must maintain our borders. But by the same token, much can be done to aid in legal immigration, obtaining of citizenship, and making this whole thing a lot better than it is right now.
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Former Member
Banned
But what sustains the law? Are we morally obligated to follow an immoral law? Mexicans are fleeing a land of drug lords and poverty in order to give their family a chance. We should refer to them as refugees than "illegal immigrants", however, we need to constantly remind ourselves that they did not come into the country 'legally'. Never mind the fact that our "just laws" make it nearly impossible for the men, women, and children locked in poverty to move to the United States legally.
PearlWatson
Well-Known Member
Mormons prolly just fell out of love with #12.
Or you get your rocks off by needling them.
PearlWatson
Well-Known Member
Having a set of criteria for people to become citizens ain't immoral. No matter how wonderful it sounds we can't take the worlds poor into our country and further tax our "safety nets" without asking for a social contract in return...learn our laws, history, language, and obey our laws.
It would actually be more appropriate to refer to them as illegal aliens, seeing as many of them have no intention of becoming citizens.
I also believe in giving -22 to bigots, tools, and hacks. Enjoy yours.
No he's not.
Correct. The immorality (stupid choice of words) of it is that the criteria is absurdly difficult and expensive.
I haven't seen a single person who is disagreeing with this point, but keep hammering it like the Republicooter you are.
Well, I guess that settles it then. Real strong argument there, Slopper. I was actually thinking about the Pledge of Allegiance today and made a commitment to myself: I'm not going to put my hand over my heart or recite it until Americans start living by it. "With liberty and justice for all." I have a feeling I've recited my last pledge.
Well if you're talking about all Americans, then you certainly have said the pledge of allegiance for the last time. That could be true even if you're just talking about most.