Can't Afford Sexual Reassignment?

[TroutBum]

I think there are some people who are predisposed to homosexuality, some very strongly predisposed. I think others are not strongly predisposed to being either straight or gay. I imagine there is a whole spectrum of sexual disposition and not a gay/straight switch in our DNA.

I'm 100% with you that it does not matter if it is a choice or not. The individual has every right to make that choice if that's what it is. I find the "can't help it" argument to be weak as well. To me it's completely besides the point. If you were "born that way" fine. If you chose to be that way, fine. Both are legitimate and both individuals deserve equal rights under the law.

Did I miss something? When has he ever said that it doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. He has blatantly stated that it IS a choice. I also haven't seen him mention anything about being treated equally in the eyes of the law. I'm too lazy to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure you're confusing him with someone else who has a brain.

 

[Gameface]

Did I miss something? When has he ever said that it doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. He has blatantly stated that it IS a choice. I also haven't seen him mention anything about being treated equally in the eyes of the law. I'm too lazy to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure you're confusing him with someone else who has a brain.

I'm not addressing him directly, just speaking in general. BTP is pretty far out there on this one and I have zero desire to go that far to pick him up and bring him back to reality.

But in the general LGBT debate, I don't think the "born that way" argument is powerful at all. Maybe people are born that way. Maybe they aren't. Maybe some are and some aren't. I don't think people in the LGBT need to validate who they are by saying they had no choice. I think they should simply say we are not hurting anyone and what we want is equality under the law, end of story. I don't think there is a rational argument against giving people equal treatment under the law.

EDIT: I thought you were talking about BTP. I'm not 100% with heyhey on this, but we're pretty close. Gay people don't need an excuse for why they are gay, they have every right to be gay either by choice or by genetic predisposition. I'm not educated on the matter enough to know if 99% of people are hard wired for their sexual orientation or if it's only 90% of people, but my guess based on people I've known from a young age who have a variety of sexual orientations is that the vast majority of people who are gay had those tendencies pretty much their entire lives.

But I also was in the Navy with a chick who was a lesbian, but she admitted that she was also attracted to men but was afraid to let her lesbian friends know that because apparently being bi is bad for your love life in the lesbian community. Who knew?

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm not addressing him directly, just speaking in general. BTP is pretty far out there on this one and I have zero desire to go that far to pick him up and bring him back to reality.

But in the general LGBT debate, I don't think the "born that way" argument is powerful at all. Maybe people are born that way. Maybe they aren't. Maybe some are and some aren't. I don't think people in the LGBT need to validate who they are by saying they had no choice. I think they should simply say we are not hurting anyone and what we want is equality under the law, end of story. I don't think there is a rational argument against giving people equal treatment under the law.

EDIT: I thought you were talking about BTP. I'm not 100% with heyhey on this, but we're pretty close. Gay people don't need an excuse for why they are gay, they have every right to be gay either by choice or by genetic predisposition. I'm not educated on the matter enough to know if 99% of people are hard wired for their sexual orientation or if it's only 90% of people, but my guess based on people I've known from a young age who have a variety of sexual orientations is that the vast majority of people who are gay had those tendencies pretty much their entire lives.

But I also was in the Navy with a chick who was a lesbian, but she admitted that she was also attracted to men but was afraid to let her lesbian friends know that because apparently being bi is bad for your love life in the lesbian community. Who knew?

Pretty much

 

[BTP]

I think my point on the issue is a little bit misunderstood or the fact that I don't make compromises on these kind of questions hurts the acceptance of my opinion.
I'll even go that far to say that some additional thinking process brought up a couple more angles on aspects in that context and I'm not afraid to admit that I went out of line and will rescind that statement as soon as I feel comfortable to do a followup knowledge wise.

 

[Gameface]

I think my point on the issue is a little bit misunderstood or the fact that I don't make compromises on these kind of questions hurts the acceptance of my opinion.
I'll even go that far to say that some additional thinking process brought up a couple more angles on aspects in that context and I'm not afraid to admit that I went out of line and will rescind that statement as soon as I feel comfortable to do a followup knowledge wise.

You lost my acceptance when you said that gender identity is a luxury problem. Then you went on about poor you got stung by a wasp and the sting got infected. Really had a hard time taking you seriously after that. But it could have just been a poor way of framing your argument.

 

[♪alt13]

This is so damn dumb that I will need to break it into separate little dumblettes.

DIDO

Wait, what? That's how you "define choice"?

It is a definition that is fitting for the context of this conversation. The long winded version is...

I think there are some people who are predisposed to homosexuality, some very strongly predisposed. I think others are not strongly predisposed to being either straight or gay. I imagine there is a whole spectrum of sexual disposition and not a gay/straight switch in our DNA.
I'm 100% with you that it does not matter if it is a choice or not. The individual has every right to make that choice if that's what it is.

Wrong. I'm sympathetic to human rights, you farking twit.

I believe that Homosexual rights = Human rights, many people don't. We weren't speaking about any other rights and with your bull **** crass nature why would I assume that you are a level headed thinking individual. My assumption (based on your hyper sensitive petty remarks) was that you were just an *** hole who happened to know someone who was gay, not someone who actually gave a **** about justice and equality.

Does it matter? Can science ever win the debate about life with an argument that is based on genetic fatalism?

Of course the moral argument matters you half wit. That is precisely the grounds people use to trample on the LGBT community.

Science > Your Idiot Opinion

Please tell us some science Mr. Algebra. Maybe something you heard from Bill Nye.

No ****? Thank goodness homosexuality isn't against the law, nor does it physically harm others, or innocent people.

I agree with this, yeah. You just made a moral argument congratulations. Oh wait never mind moral arguments don't matter right?

Serious question: Do you remember your first boner? Or the first time you got that tingle in your nuts when you saw a boob in a National Geographic? No? You mean you were already wired to like the opposite sex, much like 99.9% of the rest of the animals on this planet? Or in other words, you didn't choose to be straight?

For some people(like yourself)it is black and white, but for many it is a complex question that they struggle with. Peoples sexual attractions include bdsm,feet,fat people,same sex,opposite sex,fruit and everything else under the sun. Do you really think our genes programmed us for all of these sexual desires? Your sheltered vanilla *** up bringing might lead you to believe in this "natural" bull **** mantra but it is counter intuitive to the evidence out there in the world. Pull your head out of your ***.

 

[♪alt13]

Did I miss something? When has he ever said that it doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. He has blatantly stated that it IS a choice. I also haven't seen him mention anything about being treated equally in the eyes of the law. I'm too lazy to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure you're confusing him with someone else who has a brain.

Absolutely not.

For the record I think being gay(and by default)straight is a choice.

I also believe that making choices is what makes life precious and so someone choosing to be gay makes their emotions no less valid.

.

 

[One Brow]

... I look at it as a choice.

Why would anyone choose to be reviled for personal characteristics?

 

[One Brow]

For the record I think being gay(and by default)straight is a choice.

I also believe that making choices is what makes life precious and so someone choosing to be gay makes their emotions no less valid.

Nice of you to say the latter. As for the former, if you are attracted to both men and women, the term is bisexual, even is you only act on those feelings with one gender. Being bisexual is not a choice, either.

 

[Gameface]

Why would anyone choose to be reviled for personal characteristics?

Why do people get off on bondage or being urinated on? I don't think that argument, that no person would choose to be gay, is very strong and I actually think it's kind of insulting, like the lifestyle is so undesirable;e and looked down upon that people must not have a choice.

Now, I figure most people never made a conscious choice, but that's not saying no one has ever made that choice, or that if they did they made a stupid choice.

 

[One Brow]

Identical Twins.
One gay One straight
which one do you call out for not being true to themselves.

Neither, since there is so much more to development than DNA.

Can the LGBT community ever win the debate about the morality of their lifestyle with an argument that is based on genetic fatalism?

Any argument based on genetic determinism is foolish and misguided, whatever the goal.

P.S. I did choose to be straight. I'm sure there were a lot of cultural, environmental, personal, and even genetic factors that led me to my decision. Ultimately it was a choice.

That means you're bisexual.

 

[fishonjazz]

Why do people get off on bondage or being urinated on? I don't think that argument, that no person would choose to be gay, is very strong and I actually think it's kind of insulting, like the lifestyle is so undesirable;e and looked down upon that people must not have a choice.

Now, I figure most people never made a conscious choice, but that's not saying no one has ever made that choice, or that if they did they made a stupid choice.

Solid post right thuurr

 

[One Brow]

Why do people get off on bondage or being urinated on?

I don't think you can choose to be turned on by kink, either. However. generally kink is private, while gender is public, so it's a bad analogy. Trans* people are not typically sexually aroused by their trans* state, to my understand.

I don't think that argument, that no person would choose to be gay, is very strong and I actually think it's kind of insulting, like the lifestyle is so undesirable;e and looked down upon that people must not have a choice.

The lifestyle is considered undesirable, and trans* people often lose family and friends over it.

Now, I figure most people never made a conscious choice, but that's not saying no one has ever made that choice, or that if they did they made a stupid choice.

I agree that the range of human society and experiences are so vast that there are probably a very few who actually choose to be trans*, but they are the exception.

 

[♪alt13]

Neither, since there is so much more to development than DNA.


agree
Any argument based on genetic determinism is foolish and misguided, whatever the goal.

agree

That means you're bisexual.

It means that I believe that while I recognize environmental and genetic factors in my decisions I also recognize that they are in fact decisions. I have a will and I am the shaper of my own destiny.

Calling folks out on their sexual orientation is distasteful.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I've never understood why anybody makes the issue of others' sexual preference (as long as it is consentual) their own. That is all I have to say.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Why do people get off on bondage or being urinated on? I don't think that argument, that no person would choose to be gay, is very strong and I actually think it's kind of insulting, like the lifestyle is so undesirable;e and looked down upon that people must not have a choice.

Now, I figure most people never made a conscious choice, but that's not saying no one has ever made that choice, or that if they did they made a stupid choice.

good thing those guys dont have bondage pride.
or Urolagnia pride.

they keep it in the bedroom. as all people of the LBGT need to do.

keep it all in the bedroom

 

[One Brow]

It means that I believe that while I recognize environmental and genetic factors in my decisions I also recognize that they are in fact decisions. I have a will and I am the shaper of my own destiny.

Calling folks out on their sexual orientation is distasteful.

Sexual orientation/attraction is not a decision.

I'm not calling you out. I'm stating the obvious conclusion deriving from your statements.

 

[One Brow]

good thing those guys dont have bondage pride.
or Urolagnia pride.

they keep it in the bedroom. as all people of the LBGT need to do.

keep it all in the bedroom

Since straight sexuality is not "all in the bedroom", expecting LGBT sexuality to remain there is blatant discrimination.

 

[fishonjazz]

This thread totally sucking.

More talk of hot lesbians please

 

[One Brow]

This thread totally sucking.

More talk of hot lesbians please

It's such a relief that someone decided to make this about women being sexual objects. I was wondering if JazzFanz had changed.