Following potential 2014 draftees
- Thread starter Dr. Jones
- Start date
Hunger alone doesn't equate success. You have to factor in the knucklehead rating along with talent. Derrick Coleman is a prime example. Talent wise off the charts, however his hunger rating along with knucklehead rating led to him underachieving over his career.
While Beasley looked as though he was "hungry", his overall talent in college won out but when he got to the pros his lack of hunger and knucklehead factor keeps him from achieving a consistent success.
So when evaluating a player you must consider talent + hunger - knucklehead factor. The difficulty arises because anyone of these three factors can affect the other. Hunger can overcome a lack of talent, talent can hide some hunger issues and people will over look the knucklehead factor if a player has talent. All three of these factors can result in GMs making bad decisions. Usually superstars have high talent and a ton of hunger and low knucklehead number.
I don't think KKK was insinuating that hunger is the deciding factor but it is a factor that could be the difference when deciding between two players. If the talent is equal and there is little or no known knucklehead factor than you have to look at hunger. Hunger is subjective in many ways and not always easy to determine but at the heart of it is doing all that is possible to get better, to be a player who wants the big moments and a player that doesn't back down from adversity or challenges. It is a necessary quality to have if you want to have success in the NBA.
Pretty much every elite player has it along with talent. Hunger can make good players very good and a lack of it can make very good players marginal (i.e. Andrew Bynum). For some marginal players it is the only way they survive. For others it is what keeps them from realizing their full potential. Some people include hunger as intangibles. Yes it is sometimes hard to predict but I think you can observe it easily if you are around a team. Take AK for an example, a guy with all the talent in the world but was known to be the first guy out the door. Overall, he had a great basketball mind and his knucklehead rating is low but his lack of hunger prevented him from being the top 10 player people thought he might become. People blame the coaches but I think it had more to do with the fact he didn't love basketball and he didn't have the drive to become great. He just performed based on his talent.
I don't think screaming or acting like a badass is necessarily an indication of hunger. Some people measure it that way but I don't. I think working hard in the offseason, working on your body and game. Putting in the hours of practice is where it starts. Looking at your weaknesses and improving them. When the games start stepping up and giving it your all despite your talent. Making plays and playing hard. Being upset when you lose and wanting to compete against anyone even if they are better than you.
Look at Bruce Bowen, a guy with average ability but having the hunger to be in the league and to play as hard as possible. Mario Ellie is another guy. Lebron James is a superstar because he was born with natural talent but also because he has the desire (hunger to be one of the greats). I saw it in Kobe, kid is air-balling shots against the Jazz when he is 17 years old and he didn't let it bother him. It was all part of his learning process. If you watch enough basketball, you become better at seeing this type of behavior. It is a mindset and I am sure that some people are better at evaluating it than others. However, just to discount it as not important or hard to quantify can lead to making the wrong decision when drafting.
When I look at players, I look at talent and the desire to get better and then add in my knucklehead factor. Is it an exact science? No, because the one thing that is not always 100 percent predictable is human behavior. Humans are complex creatures. They don't always behave the way we think they will and life doesn't always go the way we plan. I guess what I am trying to say is that evaluating players is difficult and all GMs make mistakes but when I pick a guy I want to be sure the player has talent, wants to get better and shows that he is actually working to get better and has a low knucklehead factor (is he constantly getting into trouble/doesn't learn from his mistakes). If I feel confident with these factors I will draft him even if the player has obvious flaws. The history of the league is filled with stories of players with all the talent in the world who didn't work hard and had obvious high knucklehead factor who end up being bust while guys who work hard AND have enough talent usually have some success in the league.
Being hungry isn't the only factor in evaluating a player. I think Smart's knucklehead factor might be higher and that is a reason why he isn't on my list. Now, I could be wrong and I know you weren't talking to me but I have concerns about Smart's anger issues and his shot selection. I also read an article about him criticizing his teammates. I don't know if it is true but it is a concern I would have address.
Lance Stevenson, Josh Smith and J.R. Smith are players who seem to have a lot of hunger but due to their knucklehead factors I wouldn't touch them even though they have a lot of talent. I am not saying Smart is a knucklehead and I certainly don't think he is on the level of these guys but it is a concern and is a major reason why I don't have him higher on my list. I also am concerned about his ability to play PG and his jump shot.
Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
It's kkk's way. He would rather have the rest of us fight his battles for him. He's just not hungry
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Hunger alone doesn't equate success. You have to factor in the knucklehead rating along with talent. Derrick Coleman is a prime example. Talent wise off the charts, however his hunger rating along with knucklehead rating led to him underachieving over his career.
While Beasley looked as though he was "hungry", his overall talent in college won out but when he got to the pros his lack of hunger and knucklehead factor keeps him from achieving a consistent success.
So when evaluating a player you must consider talent + hunger - knucklehead factor. The difficulty arises because anyone of these three factors can affect the other. Hunger can overcome a lack of talent, talent can hide some hunger issues and people will over look the knucklehead factor if a player has talent. All three of these factors can result in GMs making bad decisions. Usually superstars have high talent and a ton of hunger and low knucklehead number.
I don't think KKK was insinuating that hunger is the deciding factor but it is a factor that could be the difference when deciding between two players. If the talent is equal and there is little or no known knucklehead factor than you have to look at hunger. Hunger is subjective in many ways and not always easy to determine but at the heart of it is doing all that is possible to get better, to be a player who wants the big moments and a player that doesn't back down from adversity or challenges. It is a necessary quality to have if you want to have success in the NBA.
Pretty much every elite player has it along with talent. Hunger can make good players very good and a lack of it can make very good players marginal (i.e. Andrew Bynum). For some marginal players it is the only way they survive. For others it is what keeps them from realizing their full potential. Some people include hunger as intangibles. Yes it is sometimes hard to predict but I think you can observe it easily if you are around a team. Take AK for an example, a guy with all the talent in the world but was known to be the first guy out the door. Overall, he had a great basketball mind and his knucklehead rating is low but his lack of hunger prevented him from being the top 10 player people thought he might become. People blame the coaches but I think it had more to do with the fact he didn't love basketball and he didn't have the drive to become great. He just performed based on his talent.
I don't think screaming or acting like a badass is necessarily an indication of hunger. Some people measure it that way but I don't. I think working hard in the offseason, working on your body and game. Putting in the hours of practice is where it starts. Looking at your weaknesses and improving them. When the games start stepping up and giving it your all despite your talent. Making plays and playing hard. Being upset when you lose and wanting to compete against anyone even if they are better than you.
Look at Bruce Bowen, a guy with average ability but having the hunger to be in the league and to play as hard as possible. Mario Ellie is another guy. Lebron James is a superstar because he was born with natural talent but also because he has the desire (hunger to be one of the greats). I saw it in Kobe, kid is air-balling shots against the Jazz when he is 17 years old and he didn't let it bother him. It was all part of his learning process. If you watch enough basketball, you become better at seeing this type of behavior. It is a mindset and I am sure that some people are better at evaluating it than others. However, just to discount it as not important or hard to quantify can lead to making the wrong decision when drafting.
When I look at players, I look at talent and the desire to get better and then add in my knucklehead factor. Is it an exact science? No, because the one thing that is not always 100 percent predictable is human behavior. Humans are complex creatures. They don't always behave the way we think they will and life doesn't always go the way we plan. I guess what I am trying to say is that evaluating players is difficult and all GMs make mistakes but when I pick a guy I want to be sure the player has talent, wants to get better and shows that he is actually working to get better and has a low knucklehead factor (is he constantly getting into trouble/doesn't learn from his mistakes). If I feel confident with these factors I will draft him even if the player has obvious flaws. The history of the league is filled with stories of players with all the talent in the world who didn't work hard and had obvious high knucklehead factor who end up being bust while guys who work hard AND have enough talent usually have some success in the league.
Rep'd HARDDDDD!!!
This. This. This.
Player Evaluation = Talent + Hunger - Knucklehead factor
THK!!!
THK!!!
Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
Your dangerously close to me calling you a name you might not like.
What were you expecting? Does he need to be perfect before you praise him?? Looked like solid defense to me. When I clicked on the video I half expected there to be nothing but fail. You have zero cred with me as you only see what you want to see no matter what your looking at
One example would be people saying Vonleh has tunnel vision becaues he had so few assists, without realizing he only played 26 min a game, and playing C, playing out of position, and then consider the fact he got so few touches.
I do however recall AB PG saying he played as a point forward in high school. I suggest you look at his high school footage.
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mellow
Well-Known Member
More on Randles foot
Randle suffered the broken right foot in the second game of his senior season at Prestonwood Christian Academy in Texas and a screw was inserted into the foot.
According to several team executives, the 6-foot-9 Kentucky forward's broken right foot hasn't healed correctly
https://espn.go.com/nba/draft2014/s...-worried-julius-randle-improperly-healed-foot
Randle suffered the broken right foot in the second game of his senior season at Prestonwood Christian Academy in Texas and a screw was inserted into the foot.
According to several team executives, the 6-foot-9 Kentucky forward's broken right foot hasn't healed correctly
https://espn.go.com/nba/draft2014/s...-worried-julius-randle-improperly-healed-foot
Whoah.. this could affect this draft stock... a team picking mid-late lottery is gonna grab a bargain for sure.
Good thing this shouldn't affect the Jazz's draft as he's not consensus top 4 pick anyway.
Litany
Well-Known Member
You don't have any cred with me so we are okay in that dept. you're the same guy that screamed from the mountain tops that Hayward is more than a role player and about lost your mind when people didn't want to pay him $12 Million a year.
As for Vonleh, my problem with him and his game is what I already stated. He doesn't wow me. Nothing wows me about him. It's all average. If he isn't elite at SOMETHING and have another great attribute that he's very good at or doesn't stand out I have a hard time being excited about him at the #5 pick. I watch him and sometimes I forget he's on the court.
Smart? Elite defender, very good athlete
AG? Elite athlete, very good defender
Wigg? Elite athlete, very good to elite defender
Parker? Elite scorer, very good bbiq
Embiid? Will be Elite in many things at his size(guy stays healthy he's a hofer) I don't need to make his case. He's gotta go first.
Exum? No fricking clue as I don't see enough of him. People say elite first step. I don't know what to think of this guy.
Vonleh? Athlete? No, he doesn't move like one, slow off the floor (dont give a crap about combine tests, see Jimmer) defender? Average. Scorer? At just barely double digits? Nope.
Bottom line? Vonleh doesn't seem to impact the game the way I want to see.
You act like I have some agenda against Vonleh. I don't. I want to like him but what I've said above on top of the fact that he has no fire in him = I'll pass. We have enough passiveness on this team.
And I'd like to point out that I was right about Hayward. He's average. A role player. Not worth what you said he was. You spent the fall calling people names for disagreeing with you on this and it makes me laugh now.
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