Clothing

[One Brow]

It's her choice, ultimately, but she needs to know she almost certainly will be drawing unwanted attention to herself, and for really no good reason.

I think "unwanted" is a key word here. Dressing in a miniskirt probably will attract more attention, but will it attract more unwanted attention?

If you don't want someone's attention, you send out social signals. It might be clothing, an all-day signal, or it might be short-term, like not looking at them and not smiling. Are there a sizable percentage of people who ignore the latter type of social signal but honor the first type?

 

[One Brow]

Whatever a person chooses to wear makes a statement about that person.
The statement a person is making may not be what the people viewing that person think it means.
Clothing is a form of communication whether you like it or not.

I had already said as much before you posted this.

In the example (picture) provided, what this girl's statement is in her mind, and what other people view her statement is can be completely different.
It is up to interpretation.

I agree with your dissection of some of the contexts.

As to you (OB) stating your daughter will be harassed by men, judged by men and women and treated as an object by men and women no matter what she wears... I'm not sure I agree, but for arguments sake lets say this is true.

Well, I don't have personal experience, but I trust what women say on the matter. It's easy enough to find stories of women who were sexually harassed in business attire, sweat clothes, or while wearing parkas.

I would still make the point that the degree of harassment/judgement/objectification would change based on what your daughter was wearing depending on the circumstances. It might still happen but to a much greater or lesser degree depending on the situation and what is being worn.

I appreciate that you believe this point. I see no reason to believe it is true.

 

[moevillini]

Originally Posted by Triangle Man
I would still make the point that the degree of harassment/judgement/objectification would change based on what your daughter was wearing depending on the circumstances. It might still happen but to a much greater or lesser degree depending on the situation and what is being worn.

I appreciate that you believe this point. I see no reason to believe it is true.

So do you believe that an average appearing woman wearing a relatively modest bikini at the beach would attract the same attention if she wore that same attire in her front yard while gardening?

Personally, I think at the beach she'd pretty much be ignored, but in her front yard she'd attract quite a few stares...
But I accept your choice to disagree.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Well, I don't have personal experience, but I trust what women say on the matter. It's easy enough to find stories of women who were sexually harassed in business attire, sweat clothes, or while wearing parkas.

Yes, you can find women that have said as much just like someone else can find women that have not. Your statement here means/changes nothing other than show you as taking what some women may or may not have said as the standard. I find when you resort to statements like this to prove you are on solid ground very similar to the commercials that say 8 out of 10 dentists prefer "insert toothpaste" over other brands. The question I always have is, which 8 and which 10 dentists out of the many thousands that are out there?

I appreciate that you believe this point. I see no reason to believe it is true.

Of course not, because it doesn't align with your cause in this thread. That would be counter productive. 8 out of 10 white knights also see no reason to believe it or even consider it for that matter.

 

[carolinajazz]

Shame is a social construct. It's what separates man from the animals. The only way to eradicate it would be to have a social system of pure chaos.

...excellent post expressed very eloquently!

 

[carolinajazz]

So, uh, what's the story behind how you found that first one? Just curious. I mean, did you google "bulging speedos" the way you did "sagging pants"?

....don't actually recall, but I typed something in that came to mind as being "immodest" male attire! Perhaps you could come up with something else that is also immodest male attire?

 

[Hantlers]

Since we've vaguely touched on sexual assault and what not, I thought I would offer this question to see what everybody thought.

Does having a hookup culture increase the chances of having a rape culture? Or in other words, does having a culture where hookups are accepted/encouraged lead to more sexual assault occurrences?

 

[moevillini]

Since we've vaguely touched on sexual assault and what not, I thought I would offer this question to see what everybody thought.

Does having a hookup culture increase the chances of having a rape culture? Or in other words, does having a culture where hookups are accepted/encouraged lead to more sexual assault occurrences?

I would say no. Perhaps it might even lessen those occurrences.

 

[LogGrad98]

Since we've vaguely touched on sexual assault and what not, I thought I would offer this question to see what everybody thought.

Does having a hookup culture increase the chances of having a rape culture? Or in other words, does having a culture where hookups are accepted/encouraged lead to more sexual assault occurrences?

India has anything but a hookup culture and look what happens there.

 

[One Brow]

So do you believe that an average appearing woman wearing a relatively modest bikini at the beach would attract the same attention if she wore that same attire in her front yard while gardening?

I was responding not to the generic "attention", but the more specific harassment/judgement/objectification. I'm sure you'll attract more attention wearing a bikini in a front yard vs. jeans, but will you be harassed more? What's your personal experience there?

 

[One Brow]

Yes, you can find women that have said as much just like someone else can find women that have not.

You can find women who don't talk about their harassment much, for various reasons. Finding women who have never been harassed is much more difficult.

Your statement here means/changes nothing other than show you as taking what some women may or may not have said as the standard. I find when you resort to statements like this to prove you are on solid ground very similar to the commercials that say 8 out of 10 dentists prefer "insert toothpaste" over other brands. The question I always have is, which 8 and which 10 dentists out of the many thousands that are out there?

This reads to me as if you are saying we should not believe women when they tell us what they experience. I don't accept that line of thinking. Are you looking for some sort of study on harassment relative to clothing or gender?

Of course not, because it doesn't align with your cause in this thread. That would be counter productive. 8 out of 10 white knights also see no reason to believe it or even consider it for that matter.

What's your reason for believing it true? Why do you think that the degree of harassment/judgement/objectification (as opposed to wanted attention) would change based on what your daughter was wearing depending on the circumstances? Can you do better than "it's obvious"?

 

[One Brow]

Since we've vaguely touched on sexual assault and what not, I thought I would offer this question to see what everybody thought.

Does having a hookup culture increase the chances of having a rape culture? Or in other words, does having a culture where hookups are accepted/encouraged lead to more sexual assault occurrences?

Hookups are about consent, and the notion that if one person does not consent, another person will. Sexual assault is about ignoring consent. I don't see how the former encourages the latter.