You put my error at a different word. It should have been "attempts at calm discussion", not " attempts to clam discussion".
Looks like there are pig cops all over the country (no shocker)
- Thread starter HighlandHomie
- Start date
You put my error at a different word. It should have been "attempts at calm discussion", not " attempts to clam discussion".
I don't see evidence that such sabotage exists. If you are saying he changes the minds of very few people, that would only be sabotage if you thought such people would otherwise be amenable to having their minds changed.
Just Ted
Well-Known Member
HH, I have to go on record that I agree with about 90% of what you say. Being from the South and a minority has caused me to re-evaluate a lot of situations. However, I have spent my time trying to make change thru simple positive actions that change perspective and perception rather than pushing my agenda to a group of individuals who are largely open to change and want what is best for human rights. Coming here with the anger only adds to a stereo type that I do not want to be part of . Be respectful of all races and expect the same. I know it's not that way now and a peaceful change must happen, but your anger is just too much.
Not that you care OB, but I completely agree with Siro on this. Changing the minds of few people is not sabotaging what you appear to be fighting for, but pushing people away from listening to the issue you seem to fight for because of how you approach things can be a setback to the issue you appear to champion is sabotage to the issue/subject.
I think rational, fact driven debate is much more effective in changing opinion than vitriol and name calling don't you? Also we both know this audience is much wider, and more diverse, than the active posters on this site.
HighlandHomie describes himself as a white teenager in Utah. His being angry doesn't add to any stereotype I can think of.
I don't think anything I wrote could be stretched into opposing the notion that "Changing the minds of few people is not sabotaging what you appear to be fighting for...".
I agree that, if such change were possible and could be accomplished through rational discussion, than the use of heated rhetoric might sabotage such change. However, I don't see any evidence rational discussion is a more effective means of effecting change.
Pushing people away may have the effect of removing their voices from the conversation. That would reduce the echo effect of prevalent stereotypes, and potentially increase the net amount of change that can be accomplished.
I used to think that rational, fact-driven debate was more effective. However, the truth is that, when confronted with facts that tend to undermine their preexisting beliefs, people often respond by becoming even more firmly entrenched in those beliefs. This website calls it the Backfire Effect:
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
Sometimes, when the issue is highly emotional, making it clear how people are emotionally affected will offer a better means of breaking through the Backfire Effect than a rational discussion, whether the reader is an active poster or not.
HighlandHomie
Well-Known Member
Not a teen - in my early 20's. But, yes, as I've stated numerous times I'm white and grew up in both Idaho and Utah.
HighlandHomie
Well-Known Member
It's funny that you're too dense to process that I'm not trying to "change anyone's opinion" on the matter, because it's your density that disables you from understanding why people are outraged at the systemic targeting of blacks around the country.
What are you even arguing about here? You are the first one to even mention anything about this and it is secondary to the point being made. What is your point here?
If you want to bully into change, maybe. Real and lasting change, is not the same as temporary change obtained by hostile means.
If your goal is to chase away people willing to talk to you in a reasonable manner, and call it a victory, then yes you have succeeded in bully tactics in order to get what you want. Chase away opposing voices in order to accomplish whatever change is important to you. I wouldn't call that progress.
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
All this accomplishes is filtering out people that don't already agree with you. In my view that enhances the echo effect.
Those people still exist. They still have an opinion. They still have the conversation they just have it in their own circles. They will turn on some Rush Limbaugh and forget your opinion and your arguments for it.
You're trying to convince people of the need for urgent action. I'll happily dig up your many posts about the need for a revolution if need be. Anyone who expresses an opinion has an agenda. You're no different. And your lashing out against disagreement has absolutely nothing to do with honestly assessing people's biases. In fact, our very first interaction was me calling you out for advocating targeting cops' families, and you responding by calling me a racist and a Klansman and whatever else. You persisted even after you learned I wasn't white. Not being white doesn't prevent me from being racist, of course, but it certainly does a Klansman and a redneck. So let's not pretend we're mistaking your brutal intellectual honesty for douchebaggery.
Sure you're presenting some facts. But those facts are buried underneath so much emotion, it becomes impossible to recognize them for what they are. I mean really now, through those 20 years or so you've been on Earth, how many people have you actually convinced of your opinions? Believe it or not, it is very possible to change people's minds. It takes time and patience, but it is often doable. In my case, I was the first atheist anyone in my family ever encountered. Now a good chunk of them are atheists. If you're passionate about your opinions and want others to hear them, then I highly suggest you change your approach. Get over the idea that you simply know better. You're so young, that even in the unlikely case you've spent your whole life in an intense pursuit of knowledge and understanding, you'd still be decades behind countless others.
I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this. I just felt that we've been through too many childish skirmishes, and it is time I attempted to get across at least one serious thought. So take it as you will.
HighlandHomie
Well-Known Member
CHEERS MATE
No disrespect or disdain intended, I assure you. I welcome your contributions; it's always nice to hear a fresh voice.
And aggressively insulting people helps? You are framing HH as just being emotional about the issue and I don't buy it. He attacks the posters instead trying to get them to open their eyes. Regardless of their stances on the issue. Numerous posters have called him out on this.
It leads me to believe that he doesn't give a damn about this issue and that he isn't emotional about it. He is simply here to cause drama and insult people.
You argument that anger helps might be plausible here if it was genuine and aimed correctly. If you think name calling and the like is an effective tool then its no wonder you have made little progress.
I was objecting to how you characterized my argument.
I agree that bully tactics are inappropriate. However, not every tirade is a bully tactic, not even every insult. If HighlandHomie were inserting heated rhetoric on the racial attitudes of others posters into threads about Rudy Gobert, or repeatedly giving negative reputation, or sending private messages, etc., that would certainly be a bully tactic. However, creating an occasional thread devoted to racial topics, and ranting inside that thread, does not qualify as bullying in my mind.
Real and lasting change will be accomplished, in part, by getting people to change their behavior, because behavior guides thought to at least the same degree that thought guides behavior. Changed behaviors become patterns, patterns become habits, and humans seek to justify their habits. So yes, chasing illegitimate offerings out of the conversation does, in part, progress us.
The echo from mainstream society is never silenced.
Then their is no point in amplifying it by causing your own voice to be ignored.