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Poll: Should the Lindsey/Vanik experiment come to an end?

Should the Lindsey/Zanik experiment come to an end?

  • No. Just a few more tweaks and we'll be a contender.

    Votes: 21 67.7%

  • Yes. They shouldn't be let near the next rebuild.

    Votes: 10 32.3%
  • Total voters
    31
Bojan is not a true starter but a role player or a 6th man at best, Mike sucks, Niang shouldn't be in the NBA. Bradley just isn't good enough for a back up center duty in the NBA. DL and Zanik just jerked off at the trade deadline because Davis their other mistake wasn't traded. These bone heads need to get fired. Gail please take action, I feel for Quin so keep him but fire DL and Zanik salvage your franchise now before it's too late!
 
UtahJazz32 said:
Bojan is not a true starter but a role player or a 6th man at best, Mike sucks, Niang shouldn't be in the NBA. Bradley just isn't good enough for a back up center duty in the NBA. DL and Zanik just jerked off at the trade deadline because Davis their other mistake wasn't traded. These bone heads need to get fired. Gail please take action, I feel for Quin so keep him but fire DL and Zanik salvage your franchise now before it's too late!
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There is nothing to salvage. Ticket sales are strong. They are not paying higher cap penalties. The current product is keeping them fiscally strong. Their biggest concern is making sure we win enough to end the week to not make too big a dent in the bottom line. Money ball at it's best.
 
LogGrad98 said:
There is nothing to salvage. Ticket sales are strong. They are not paying higher cap penalties. The current product is keeping them fiscally strong. Their biggest concern is making sure we win enough to end the week to not make too big a dent in the bottom line. Money ball at it's best.
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I hear that, and its truthful but when is enough for settling for mediocrity ? Larry must be pissed God rest his soul.
 
NAOS said:
The Conley acquisition is turning into the first thing someone should mention when discussing DL’s vision and tendencies. The deal in itself is a stinker, but when you frame it within the history of spending on George Hill and Ricky Rubio, it has all the force and effect of rebuild-killing inadequacies.
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It's hard to believe how badly Lindsey/Zanik/Quin missed on a guy who's been in the league for so long. It's as if they didn't have a good handle of who our team was and what it truly needed. Hard to excuse the whiff. They seemed to just throw crap on the wall to see what stuck. And they mortgaged the future to do it.
 
NAOS said:
The Conley acquisition is turning into the first thing someone should mention when discussing DL’s vision and tendencies. The deal in itself is a stinker, but when you frame it within the history of spending on George Hill and Ricky Rubio, it has all the force and effect of rebuild-killing inadequacies.
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This is probably a thread-worthy question. Let me know if you want me to post it.

If the team’s play continues as it is with Conley, where will the Conley trade rank amongst the worst trades in the past DECADE?
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
You can't call it luck when he targeted these dudes and made the trades to get them
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The Rudy pick is debatable... that was a transition year... there were rumors that Sloan influenced that pick... I'll just say this - If you give him Rudy as "his pick" then he also gets Trey Burke and prioritized getting Burke over Rudy because he used the 14 & 21 to do so, was lucky Denver didn't have anyone they felt they had to pick and gave us the deal.

Donovan was a great pick and trade... really his crown jewel imo. There was a little luck there in how it came together... he did the pre-work. I just always wonder what happens if Denver doesn't call back... does he pick up the phone and make a better offer to force the issue or is it the old "we were aggressive".

The Hood pick was also good.

Then there are the bad picks...Trey Lyles, Tony Bradley, Grayson (still tbd and not a lot of talent picked around that spot), Dante (not all his fault because of injuries).

So fine I will just call him average... no luck, but if DM turned out to be Avery Bradley and not what he is... then how would our views of his tenure change.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
The Rudy pick is debatable... that was a transition year... there were rumors that Sloan influenced that pick... I'll just say this - If you give him Rudy as "his pick" then he also gets Trey Burke and prioritized getting Burke over Rudy because he used the 14 & 21 to do so, was lucky Denver didn't have anyone they felt they had to pick and gave us the deal.

Donovan was a great pick and trade... really his crown jewel imo. There was a little luck there in how it came together... he did the pre-work. I just always wonder what happens if Denver doesn't call back... does he pick up the phone and make a better offer to force the issue or is it the old "we were aggressive".

The Hood pick was also good.

Then there are the bad picks...Trey Lyles, Tony Bradley, Grayson (still tbd and not a lot of talent picked around that spot), Dante (not all his fault because of injuries).

So fine I will just call him average... no luck, but if DM turned out to be Avery Bradley and not what he is... then how would our views of his tenure change.
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He's far above average
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
He's far above average
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These things are hard to calculate. A GM has a lot of duties and a varied skill-set. For example, if you were judging DL based on his evolution of the facilities, coaching staffs, and his player evaluations at the margin of NBA talent, he scores really pretty high. His draft success isn’t top tier. But then if you were to evaluate the way he’s managed the PG position, for example, you’d tell security to make sure he doesn’t set foot in the building ever again.
 
DL, Zanik and Quin are not perfect. But they are all better than the majority of people in their respective positions around the NBA.

No. You don't fire any of them. Because odds are astronomically low that you find a replacement that is better.

Our main problem right now is player effort. Not anything to do with front office or coaching.
 
sgjazzfan said:
Open your eyes and read this effing message. THEY TRIED. They didn't just sit on their effing hands and accept what they had. That is my entire point. They want to improve. They took some chances. They knew that ellie defense with poor offense didn't work, so they added offense (shocker they couldn't add elite offense and defensive players at the same time, a there are about 5 of those in the NBA).

It hasn't work out as they hoped. But to say they simply want to just make the playoffs every year is not true WHICH IS THE POINT I WAS RESPONDING TO.
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that is the point of this whole thread, isn't it? nobody's sayin they didn't try. neither can anyone say at this point that they didn't fail. we've seen enough of them trying(then failing) so let's give someone else a chance in trying to generate some net improvement to this team, instead of treading water then ends up in nowhere
 
SCS said:
DL, Zanik and Quin are not perfect. But they are all better than the majority of people in their respective positions around the NBA.

No. You don't fire any of them. Because odds are astronomically low that you find a replacement that is better.

Our main problem right now is player effort. Not anything to do with front office or coaching.
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i'm sure anyone can do better than paying 2 first rounders+2 rotational players for a washed up non-star who's also massively overpaid. i'd say odds are great in finding a better replacement cuz all the moves that we've made under this current management not involving cavs or nuggets are absolute garbage.
 
Can’t wait for us to trade Conley and a pick this offseason for CP3... then he starts eating meat again gets chubby and plays like *******
 
jom2003 said:
that is the point of this whole thread, isn't it? nobody's sayin they didn't try. neither can anyone say at this point that they didn't fail. we've seen enough of them trying(then failing) so let's give someone else a chance in trying to generate some net improvement to this team, instead of treading water then ends up in nowhere
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The is the post I was replying to initially. It implies that the only thing they care about is making the playoffs, I contended that point and that point alone.
l Abach l said:
They're happy to make the playoffs every year and fill the arena. Because of the elite homerism by the local media hyping up the team every year, fans will have a false sense of hope that the team will contend. Team ends up disappointing in the playoffs, local media says that there's a lot to look forward to next season, fans get hype... rinse and repeat.
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sgjazzfan said:
The is the post I was replying to initially. It implies that the only thing they care about is making the playoffs, I contended that point and that point alone.
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his point stands. "trying" to compete and "trying" to sell tickets are both considered "trying". may look similar on paper. but two complete different things.

the summer 2018 bucks kept their core of Giannis, middleton, bledsoe and brogdon. then brought in Brook lopez and connaughton and spent a total of about 6mil in FA. made zero radical changes to their roster. then went from 8th seed in the east to front runner almost instantly.

of course mike's ten times the coach that kidd is. but the point being, the whole concept of "trying to bring the team into championship contention" doesn't necessarily require radical changes to your roster. a few tweaks may be enough to get it done. and vice versa.

this is especially true for a team that's managed to win 48+ regular season games and had already advanced to the second round in the playoffs the last two seasons. just imagine having JC on our roster last season. or brook lopez instead of niang. the series against Hou would look a whole lot different.

all we really needed were a few minor net value additions through draft/FA(get a few solid rotational pieces like i've always mentioned instead of chasing after those big money/big name stars).

instead, we pushed from one extreme to another, made huge additions followed by massive subtractions. make the biggest buzz possible to draw attention so they can sell more tickets, as opposed to going complete quiet/passive and made zero meaningful FO signing/addition the summer before.

both resulted in a total of zero net value gain, except this time we jeopardized all the great values/chemistry that made us a good team in the first place.

neither approach were the right way of "trying" to build your team for a championship
 
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so yep, what our FO's managed to accomplish in "trying" is basically for the sake of convincing the fans that they were "trying". fans grew tired of watching rubio/crowder and wanted change, so the FO swap them for different players(without making the team better) to present that false image of them "trying" so they could get their ticket sales going.

if they were truly "trying" to put together a team that's more than just treading water in the playoffs with early round exits each year, they wouldn't go for a player like conley, who's basically the very embodiment of "being happy to just make the playoffs every year and fill the arena". if we haven't seen enough signs of the guy not caring about competing for a championship at this point. start from news of him not wanting to be here, to his body language both on court and off the court in interviews. like all of his crappy play/letting down the team doesn't matter to him. and we can see that similar character from Ed davis and jeff green.

That recent ingles extension has also presented us with the fact that the FO is more concerned with the public/fans perception of them, rather than doing what is best for the team to win a title.
 
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NAOS said:
The Conley acquisition is turning into the first thing someone should mention when discussing DL’s vision and tendencies. The deal in itself is a stinker, but when you frame it within the history of spending on George Hill and Ricky Rubio, it has all the force and effect of rebuild-killing inadequacies.
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Some might call it step skipping... gasp! I have given DL the benefit of the doubt for a long time but this Conman move was glaringly stupid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Our FO is above average. Draft picks really only hit about 30% of the time or thereabouts. We’ve gotten two high-end players later in the draft, taken Exum which was a semi no-brainer in that crap draft (and anyone right after him hasn’t been very good) and has been derailed due to injuries, and Hood who’s a good pro. Bradley was a dumb selection and Allen was also questionable. So we’ve done quite well there.

One concern is perhaps in how we’ve valued those picks. Trading a 1st for Hill for one year looks bad in hindsight but it honestly made sense at the time and he was great here when healthy. Using another for Rubio was equally as questionable but we again needed to address the situation, especially with Hayward bolting as well as Hill and Joe Jesus.

A near decade in now and my biggest gripe is about how we handle contracts. Hayward’s first extension was botched. Plain and simple. We extended Joe two years early for no intelligent reason whatsoever. I’d guess going into that final year, it’ll feel really bad and his value will be at about 55-60% of that 14M. I didn’t think so at the time but looking more closely, I think we overpaid for Royce. There are a ton of solid, athletic defenders who can hit the 3 and make far less. In the latter two instances, my concern is that this stems from sort of inferiority complex from which the FO feels we need to overpay to be sure we retain the guys because, well, we’re Utah and it’s tougher to get guys here. I’m nearly positive Dennis, Locke, or Jones has alluded to this before. But that’s not a good reason. Do we really think Joe would have bolted at 34.7 years of age when his whole career’s been here and he’s developed strong relationships and ties here? Do we really think Royce would’ve wanted to test the market THAT badly that he wouldn’t have taken, I don’t know, 4/36? It’s like we overthink **** and preemptively make bad decisions to get out ahead of what’s coming, and do it poorly in some Trumpian sort of way.
 
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Wes Mantooth said:
Our FO is above average. Draft picks really only hit about 30% of the time or thereabouts. We’ve gotten two high-end players later in the draft, taken Exum which was a semi no-brainer in that crap draft (and anyone right after him hasn’t been very good) and has been derailed due to injuries, and Hood who’s a good pro. Bradley was a dumb selection and Allen was also questionable. So we’ve done quite well there.

One concern is perhaps in how we’ve valued those picks. Trading a 1st for Hill for one year looks bad in hindsight but it honestly made sense at the time and he was great when here when healthy. Using another for Rubio was equally as questionable but we again needed to address the situation, especially with Hayward bolting as well as Hill and Joe Jesus.

A near decade in now and my biggest gripe is about how we handle contracts. Hayward’s first extension was botched. Plain and simple. We extended Joe two years early for no intelligent reason whatsoever. I’d guess going into that final year, it’ll feel really bad and his value will be at about 55-60% of that 14M. I didn’t think so at the time but looking more closely, I think we overpaid for Royce. There are a ton of solid, athletic defenders who can hit the 3 and make far less. In the latter two instances, my concern is that this stems from sort of inferiority complex from which the FO feels we need to overpay to be sure we retain the guys because, well, we’re Utah and it’s tougher to get guys here. I’m nearly positive Dennis, Locke, or Jones has alluded to this before. But that’s not a good reason. Do we really think Joe would have bolted at 34.7 years of age when his whole career’s been here and he’s developed strong relationships and ties here? Do we really think Royce would’ve wanted to test the market THAT badly that he wouldn’t have taken, I don’t know, 4/36? It’s like we overthink **** and preemptively make bad decisions to get out ahead of what’s coming, and do it poorly in some Trumpian sort of way.
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Utah rewards loyalty. Always has. That's part of the jazz FO core values. That explains some of these extensions and bigger contracts than they should have been.

I'm fact that perfectly explains Ingles extension. Hold onto a fan favorite, reward his loyalty, keep a good team guy, which they value almost as much as loyalty. Fits the mold.

Doesn't make it correct, but explains it nonetheless.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Utah rewards loyalty. Always has. That's part of the jazz FO core values. That explains some of these extensions and bigger contracts than they should have been.
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Except when Mike had to be acquired no matter what, in detriment of who had been very loyal Jazz players.
 
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