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We’re getting pie faced on Last Dance

I said as much when I said their success could have been a byproduct of the Bulls having been there so many times.

It really makes you wonder how things would have turned out differently if the Jazz didn't blow game five against Houston in 1995.

Knock out the Rockets, then beat the Suns and Spurs to play an Orlando team in the NBA Finals that they likely matched up very well with.

That experience might've been enough to get 'em back to the NBA Finals a year later, even if they didn't beat the Bulls, and enough to actually win game one in 1997 - and maybe subsequently the series.

Just imagine a world where Utah beat Houston and...

Beat Orlando 4-1 to win the NBA title in 1995
Lost to Chicago 4-2 in the 1996 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-2 in the 1997 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-3 in the 1997 NBA Finals

Jazz would've been a dynasty at the end of the 90s. :oops:
Also gotta think a few vets woulda piggybacked for 96 97 98 if they won in 95
 
I said as much when I said their success could have been a byproduct of the Bulls having been there so many times.

It really makes you wonder how things would have turned out differently if the Jazz didn't blow game five against Houston in 1995.

Knock out the Rockets, then beat the Suns and Spurs to play an Orlando team in the NBA Finals that they likely matched up very well with.

That experience might've been enough to get 'em back to the NBA Finals a year later, even if they didn't beat the Bulls, and enough to actually win game one in 1997 - and maybe subsequently the series.

Just imagine a world where Utah beat Houston and...

Beat Orlando 4-1 to win the NBA title in 1995
Lost to Chicago 4-2 in the 1996 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-2 in the 1997 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-3 in the 1997 NBA Finals

Jazz would've been a dynasty at the end of the 90s. :oops:

Not following your logic. Why would we have lost to the Bulls in 96 but beat them in 97 and 98 when they were better in those years and would have had the confidence since they would’ve hypothetically beat us in 96.
 
Not following your logic. Why would we have lost to the Bulls in 96 but beat them in 97 and 98 when they were better in those years and would have had the confidence since they would’ve hypothetically beat us in 96.

Not really difficult to follow. The 1996 Bulls lost only 10 games and swept the season series against the Jazz that year (by five in SLC and then 14 in Chicago). That Bulls team is often considered the greatest team in NBA history. The Jazz were better in 1996-97, not just record-wise (they won nine more games for the most wins, at the time, in franchise history) but also did better head-to-head - splitting the series.

I believe the Jazz was equal to Chicago in 1997, which was evident in the closeness of nearly every game (losing at the buzzer in game one, losing in the final seconds in games five and six). I doubt the 1996 Finals would have been as close, even if the Jazz had won the title a year before, because they weren't near the level of Chicago that season. They would be a year later - and likely even the better team in 1997-1998 (or should have been, anyway). In 1995, they very well could have proven the best team in the NBA and still a few steps behind where they would inevitably finish a year later (hence grabbing the 1st seed in 1997 for the first time in franchise history).
 
Still completely disagree. If they beat us in ‘96, they have that confidence deep down that they will beat us in subsequent years. We likewise probably feel the opposite and though stronger, question ourselves in monumental spots. Like Karl at the free throw line in game 1.
 
Still completely disagree. If they beat us in ‘96, they have that confidence deep down that they will beat us in subsequent years. We likewise probably feel the opposite and though stronger, question ourselves in monumental spots. Like Karl at the free throw line in game 1.
It's hard to say for lots of reasons. Jazz might not have played as hard after winning a title. It's hard to repeat. But I do agree there are other years we really missed out besides the finals years. Running into Jordan sucked but we had plenty of time in Malone's and Stockton's prime to do better and didn't.
 
Running into Jordan sucked but we had plenty of time in Malone's and Stockton's prime to do better and didn't.

The Jazz also had crappy luck. Jordan finally retires, the Bulls break up, and then there's a lockout. The lockout in 1998 hurt the Jazz more because they were an older team. You can see how the Jazz just ran out of steam towards the end of the season. The Jazz started 32-8, which is a 65-win pace if this was a normal season. The Jazz then go 5-5 to finish the regular season and end up as 3rd seed instead of first, and then go 5-7 in the playoffs.

Once again, the FO do absolutely nothing to improve the team before or during the season. I've mentioned this a week ago or so in another rant, but the Jazz held 3 first round picks in 1999 and apparently those could not be traded to land anything better than Todd Fuller. Ridiculous. The Hawks, for example, traded Laettner to Detroit for Scott Pollard and a 1999 FRP, then proceeded to cut Pollard. The pick was lower than any of the 3 Jazz picks as it had originally belonged to Portland. Sure, Laettner got hurt and had a terrible season, but I don't think the Jazz FO magically knew that was going to happen.

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I think one thing we all tend to forget is just how good Stockton and Malone were, even after 1999. When I look back at those seasons in the early 2000s, I tend to remember aging Stock and Malone running on fumes and just barely dragging the Jazz into the playoffs. That's actually not at all how it played out. Stock and Malone were both still really good in their late 30s. Advanced numbers were through the roof, and actually historic for players of that age. Most players who managed to play in the league at 39 or 40 were just washed and a massive net negative statistically. We're talking people just being there because of former glory and/or because a team just needed a body to throw out there for a few minutes.

Stock and Malone were good. The front office just let them down, as they had so often done. I mentioned before how the team in the 1998 Finals was put together 4 years earlier and no upgrades were made since. It actually gets worse. Between that trade for Horny in March 1994 and a trade that landed us Donyell Marshall in August of 2000, the Jazz had neither traded for, signed, or drafted a player who would contribute above replacement level for us in the time they were here. Think about that for a second. Six and a half years and not one player that actually made us better. I know some of you will immediately point to Kirilenko being drafted in 1999, but he didn't come over from Russia until 2001. This is absolutely ridiculous. It should also be pointed out that until we landed Marshall, we had also not made a proper trade for anyone since Hornacek. A second round pick for Fuller is a joke.

I have already posted above the moves made in the 1999 season. Next year, the Jazz signed Olden Polynice and Armen Gilliam. That was it. That was the best our FO could do. Ridiculous. Polynice was 35, terrible to begin with, worst FT shooter in history, so of course he was played for 20 minutes a game next two seasons and started 158 games for the Jazz. Holy freaking hell. Gilliam was just as old, just as bad, but immediately became Malone's main backup. He'd be dead within 10 years, that's how broken down he was at this point, having been slightly better than Polynice in his prime. He was nicknamed The Hammer and Black Hole earlier in his career. Good stuff. The Jazz somehow won 55 games in 2000, despite this.

Then Horny retires, and is replaced by John Starks. Best known for being a one-time All Star(East 1994, the absolute worst All Star team of all time...look it up) and for singlehandedly costing the Knicks a title in 1994. Naturally, he was also 35. The Jazz only signed washed up 35-year olds at this point. John Crotty was also brough back a few days later, in addition to Danny Manning. By the end of the season, Manning would turn....you guessed it, 35. The Jazz do trade for Marshall, who in addition to Kirilenko, is the one bright spot of Malone and Stock's last 5 years here. The Jazz also sign David Benoit, because after Bailey re-retired, we needed another washed up former Jazzman from the early 90s.

Now, here's a crazy thing. We all remember how the Jazz played the Mavs in the first round and were up 14 going into the 4th quarter of the deciding game 5 and then lost because no one other than Stockton and Malone scored in that quarter. Do you remember this, though? These are league standings from March 9th, 2001.

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I have somehow forgotten this. This is quite late in the season, Stockton is just about to turn 39, Malone is almost 38, and the Jazz had the best record in the league. Ahead of the Spurs, the Kings, and the Lakers. The Jazz would lose their next game in Sacramento, and would basically run out of steam and finish 4th and then the whole Dallas fiasco happened. A sad end in a way to the Stockton-Malone years as that was the last time the Jazz won 50+ and had HCA. Not that I think the Jazz would've beaten the Spurs had they made it past the Mavs, and that was the year the Lakers swept all 3 WC playoff rounds, but it just makes me sad looking at the standings above. A Jazz team starting Polynice and Starks, with a bench featuring Crotty, Padgett, Manning, Ostertag, Vaughn, and Benoit finished with 53 wins. Again, Stockton and Malone were 39 and 38 by the end of that season. Can any one of you think of any other players that age in NBA's history you could replace Stock and Malone with and win more than 40 games with that cast? Hell, can you think of any NBA players aged 38 and 39 who could've led any cast to 53 wins as the two clear-cut top players on the team?

You should check out the on/off numbers for that season. John Stockton was at +18.5! No, that's not a typo. The Jazz point difference with Stockton on court was 18.5 per 100 possessions more than with Stockton off the floor. In his MVP season, when Westbrook could barely take a seat because of how bad some of the muppets he played with were, he was at +12.6. LeBron James had one season better than 18.5, and that was more than a decade ago in Cleveland. Neither of these dudes were 39. Malone was obviously a net plus that year, and so were Marshall and Russell. That was it. Basically, the Jazz couldn't even get a fifth guy who wasn't an embarrassment out on the court.

Next year, Malone started to noticeably run out of steam, and we might have missed the playoffs had it not been for the addition of a rookie Kirilenko. We did let two of our positive guys from the year before walk for free. Not that either of Marshall or Russell were great players, and even a rookie Kirilenko was better than both of them in their prime, but surely, a sign-and-trade of some kind could've been done just to net something in return. The Jazz biggest and only acquisition that year was throwing money at Amaechi to lure him from Orlando. Oh, the humanity. It wasn't until 2004 and 2005 and signings of Okur and Boozer and the trading up to draft Deron that you had the sense that someone in the FO had a plan or knew what they were doing. That's a decade, a freaking decade after the trade for Horny that we finally made some moves that actually made the team better. Ridiculous.
 
Also, a ridiculous thing I just realized today and it took me 25 years. Greg Foster is black! I swear, I thought he was white when he was on the Jazz.
 
If the refs called the games completely unbiased, Utah beats Chicago for the 1998 Finals.

If financially, Chicago had to play by the same salary cap rules as everybody else, Utah beats Chicago for the 1998 Finals.

If Chicago had to give up the assets necessary to add a phenomenal talent like Kukoc, Utah beats Chicago for the 1998 Finals.

Sure I'm a sore loser, but it doesn't make the facts above less true. MJ will never be the goat because the guy never beat an all time great team, had 5 losing seasons, was 1-10 in playoffs games without Pippen, and won due to having more league help than any player in history. Top 5 all time but not the goat. The NBA has no goat.

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If the refs called the games completely unbiased, Utah beats Chicago for the 1998 Finals.

If financially, Chicago had to play by the same salary cap rules as everybody else, Utah beats Chicago for the 1998 Finals.

If Chicago had to give up the assets necessary to add a phenomenal talent like Kukoc, Utah beats Chicago for the 1998 Finals.

Sure I'm a sore loser, but it doesn't make the facts above less true. MJ will never be the goat because the guy never beat an all time great team, had 5 losing seasons, was 1-10 in playoffs games without Pippen, and won due to having more league help than any player in history. Top 5 all time but not the goat. The NBA has no goat.

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Fill me in on what rules the Bulls were allowed to play by that other teams were not. And yes, Jordan went 6-0 in the Finals but it’s his fault he didn’t beat an all-time great team. Spare me. And a huge ****ing lol at us beating them.
 
Still completely disagree. If they beat us in ‘96, they have that confidence deep down that they will beat us in subsequent years. We likewise probably feel the opposite and though stronger, question ourselves in monumental spots. Like Karl at the free throw line in game 1.

Maybe but there's plenty of times a team loses one year and wins the rematch:

2015: Warriors beat the Cavs in the NBA Finals
2016: Cavs beat the Warriors in the NBA Finals

2013: Heat beat the Spurs in the NBA Finals
2014: Spurs beat the Heat in the NBA Finals

1988: Lakers beat the Pistons in the NBA Finals
1989: Pistons beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals

1982: Sixers beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals
1983: Lakers beat the Sixers in the NBA Finals

I'm not saying the Jazz win in 1997 but I feel not having been on the big stage before played a definite role in their play down the stretch. They came apart at the end of three games - game one, game five and game six. They only manage to win one game where it was down to the wire and that was game four. They ended up 1-3 in games decided within the final minute.

With that said, I concede it's conjecture on my end. In 1998, the Jazz had been there before, even had won game one, and still lost that series - but they were a bit better in close games, finishing 2-3 against the Bulls that Finals in games decided within the final minute (won game one & game five, dropped games two, game four and game six).

Ultimately, even if the Jazz still don't manage to beat the Bulls in 1996 or 1997 or 1998, becoming a three-time NBA loser (and, to be honest, I think the odds go against this considerably, as it's very difficult to three-peat against the same team), even just winning it in 1995 would put the franchise in an entirely different level of success.

But oh well.
 
In the examples you provided that 89 Pistons team is the only won who didn’t have players who had won it previously.

The other teams all had one or more major stars with rings who knew how to win.
 
Fill me in on what rules the Bulls were allowed to play by that other teams were not. And yes, Jordan went 6-0 in the Finals but it’s his fault he didn’t beat an all-time great team. Spare me. And a huge ****ing lol at us beating them.
Michael Jordan was signed to a contract which was bigger than the entire salary cap. He made $33+ million when the salary cap was $27. Also, he signed his contract when the team was already over the cap. So not only did the league break the "rules" for his contract, they allowed the team to sign him when they were already well over the cap.

And let's not forget the guy got calls that no other player got. And he got away with fouls on the defensive end.

Simply put, MJ owned the league. The guy was amazing, but he was catered to unlike any star we have ever seen.

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Michael Jordan was signed to a contract which was bigger than the entire salary cap. He made $33+ million when the salary cap was $27. Also, he signed his contract when the team was already over the cap. So not only did the league break the "rules" for his contract, they allowed the team to sign him when they were already well over the cap.

And let's not forget the guy got calls that no other player got. And he got away with fouls on the defensive end.

Simply put, MJ owned the league. The guy was amazing, but he was catered to unlike any star we have ever seen.

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Could we have not gone over the cap to sign a stud free agent?
 
Could we have not gone over the cap to sign a stud free agent?
I don't think so but I'm not 100% sure.

The cap rules have been changed so much since the league allowed the Bulls to give Jordan the contracts he got.

In that era, the Knicks spent a lot but like the Bulls, it was all internal (resigning Ewing primarily). The Bulls were just able to spend at will, trade for whatever contracts (Rodman), etc. The fact that Jordan made more than the entire salary cap and more than 90% of entire NBA rosters in his last two seasons in Chicago is just mind blowing.

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