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No Democracy Lasts Forever….

Red

Red

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I caught this talk on CSpan a couple of days ago. Obviously, we have problems presently in our body politic. The many political threads demonstrate that fact. One need not agree with his conclusions to appreciate this legal scholar’s thoughtful look at what we may need to do.

Erwin Chemerinsky: No Democracy Lasts Forever

www.commonwealthclub.org www.commonwealthclub.org

Has the U.S. Constitution become a threat to American democracy? Does it need to be dramatically changed or replaced if secession is to be avoided?

Join us in-person or online as Erwin Chemerinsky returns to Commonwealth Club World Affairs to share his deeply troubled thoughts of the Constitution’s inherent flaws. The dean of the UC Berkeley law school came to the sobering conclusion that our nearly 250-year-old founding document is responsible for the crisis now facing American democracy.

Chemerinsky points out that just 15 of the 11,848 amendments proposed since 1789 have passed, and he contends that the very nature of our polarization results from the Constitution’s “bad bones,” which have created a government that no longer works or has the confidence of the public. Yet he says political Armageddon can still be avoided if a new constitutional convention is empowered to replace the Constitution of 1787, much as the Founding Fathers replaced the outdated Articles of Confederation. And if that’s not possible? He has an even more radical proposal: That Americans must give serious thought to forms of secession―including a United States structured like the European Union―based on a recognition that what divides us as a country is, in fact, greater than what unites us.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DWxA2Fxl4E
 
I've been thinking a lot about this lately, so this was a good read. I think he's on the right track with this but one major concern I have with it is the overwhelming zealousness bordering on, and even outright reflecting, religiosity regarding the Constitution and the individual political parties. Especially on the right they view the Constitution as Scripture, in line with the Bible, and therefore sacrosanct, infallible, and inviolable. I think we have far too deep a rift and far too dogmatic a view of politics encroaching into the mainstream for such an exercise to even be viable, let alone fruitful in any meaningful way. I think the time for this would have been the mid-80's maybe, hindsight of course being 20/20. But right now the religious fanaticism that has gripped such a large percentage of the body politic would lead to endless stalls and hold-outs for "concessions" and likely a more heavily flawed document than we have now should they actually reach some kind of consensus on modernization, which would undoubtedly lead to moving backward in many areas to get what the left would consider the holy Grail topics covered. I could see seriously losing ground on giving rights and women's rights in the fight to enshrine a more modern view of equal rights that includes gender issues, abortion, and the like. And this isn't even taking the fully corrupt impact of big business on the whole endeavor, in an era where politicians and justices are openly bought off, how can we imagine that it wouldn't fatally taint the final product. I just cannot see a path with the current crop of career politicians that gets us to anything remotely as comprehensive and workable as the current document. Hence it's likely better left alone at this point in time. We may be past the tipping point in which this could have been feasible, in fact.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I've been thinking a lot about this lately, so this was a good read. I think he's on the right track with this but one major concern I have with it is the overwhelming zealousness bordering on, and even outright reflecting, religiosity regarding the Constitution and the individual political parties. Especially on the right they view the Constitution as Scripture, in line with the Bible, and therefore sacrosanct, infallible, and inviolable. I think we have far too deep a rift and far to dogmatic a view of politics encroaching into the mainstream for such an exercise to even be viable, let alone fruitful in any meaningful way. I think the time for this would have been the mid-80's maybe, hindsight of course being 20/20. But right now the religious fanaticism that has gripped such a large percentage of the body politic would lead to endless stalls and hold-outs for "concessions" and likely a more heavily flawed document than we have now should they actually reach some kind of consensus on modernization, which would undoubtedly lead to moving backward in many areas to get what the left would consider the holy Grail topics covered. I could see seriously losing ground on giving rights and women's rights in the fight to enshrine a more modern view of equal rights that includes gender issues, abortion, and the like. I just cannot see a path with the current crop of career politicians that gets us to anything remotely as comprehensive and workable as the current document. Hence it's likely better left alone at this point in time. We may be past the tipping point in which this could have been feasible, in fact.
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I agree with you on the feasability of drafting a new constitution. At this point, I don’t know what circumstance or circumstances can bring us to a clear realization and acceptance, willing acceptence, that what unites us is greater than what divides us. And whatever happens on 11/5/24, is far more likely to make our present moment more divisive, not less.
 
Red said:
I agree with you on the feasability of drafting a new constitution. At this point, I don’t know what circumstance or circumstances can bring us to a clear realization and acceptance, willing acceptence, that what unites us is greater than what divides us. And whatever happens on 11/5/24, is far more likely to make our present moment more divisive, not less.
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I would go as far as to say that no matter what happens we will be more divided than we ever have been before on 11/5. I think we are legitimately closer to civil war right now than we have been since the previous civil war.
 
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LogGrad98 said:
I would go as far as to say that no matter what happens we will be more divided than we ever have been before on 11/5. I think we are legitimately closer to civil war right now than we have been since the previous civil war.
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Just speaking for myself here, if trump wins my life will continue on in pretty much the same fashion as it has been. Same for if Kamala wins.

Civil war is so stupid imo.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk
 
fishonjazz said:
Just speaking for myself here, if trump wins my life will continue on in pretty much the same fashion as it has been. Same for if Kamala wins.

Civil war is so stupid imo.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk
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No doubt, and I believe the likelihood of anything beyond some violent protests is very low, but it is the closest we have been. I don't think anyone thinks it is a smart idea, but I am sure there are more than a few heavily armed rednecks just raring to go should the opportunity present itself. Point is with a civil war, you might have no choice in how it affects you.

Again, I believe the possibility is incredibly slim. But just the fact that it is a possibility will hopefully give us pause and help bring about change to get us off that ledge once and for all.
 
fishonjazz said:
Just speaking for myself here, if trump wins my life will continue on in pretty much the same fashion as it has been. Same for if Kamala wins.

Civil war is so stupid imo.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I think we are in a type of cold civil war already. But I have a hard time visualizing an open civil war happening in a modern national security state, as it is. And don’t expect it in the aftermath of this election.

But there will have to be a reckoning of some sort. By which I simply mean coming to terms with…..ourselves. Governing is difficult now, I think we really need to cut back on elevating alternative realities to compete with actual reality. I mean, that would help big time if we could find a consensus reality in our recent political and historical events. Even if Harris won in a landslide, there will still be claims of fraud. I think we need to come to actual terms with what we’ve experienced for the past decade and find a way forward.

We really don’t have a peaceful way forward, presently. These competing realities can, and have, I’ve seen it, tear families apart. And it is tearing the psyche of the country apart. To a degree I have not quite seen before. We don’t need more of this:


View: https://x.com/LoliKneepitLick/status/1843336276256407891



View: https://x.com/JohnH85309848/status/1843338799914668358


Bring back reality, lol….

Or, maybe the Civil Rights era and Vietnam era seem somehow pale(on the home front in the case of Vietnam, even with far more “taking it to the streets” in those days then now), simply because there was no internet and social media in that era. For sure, social media is making our divisions more visible, and maybe simply fooling me into thinking things are worse these days. I don’t expect open warfare, either, but I don’t expect our psychological state in the political sphere to improve soon.

Anyway, that’s a good discussion in the video I posted…..
 
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Red said:
We really don’t have a peaceful way forward, presently. These competing realities can, and have, I’ve seen it, tear families apart. And it is tearing the psyche of the country apart. To a degree I have not quite seen before. We don’t need more of this:
Click to expand...
The problem is that until we, 1) get a grip on the disinformation so easily spread through social media and 2) get business out of politics, at least as much as possible, and limit/reform greatly the legality of lobbying and 3) burn through the current crop of racist politicians bent on re-election at all costs and kowtowing to whatever power gets them re-elected then we have no hope of anything improving. And I am seriously doubting any of the above are addressed in any meaningful way in the foreseeable future. I may just be a bit more of a realist (or pessimist, I guess), but I feel like we really aren't that far from a full-on civil war. I think your assessment of a "cold civil war" is spot on, and I am not certain it will take that much to cause it all to spill over into real violence and sustained aggression, call it what you will.

Frankly I think the likelihood of civil war is much great should Trump be re-elected that if he isn't. If he isn't I think you see some violent protests and striking out against politicians and uprisings in a few parts of the country. But once he is elected, and as soon as he starts to really implement Project 2025, I think that would be the catalyst for pushing back against the changes and could lead to all-out war in defense of the nation against his budding fascist regime. And I think you will see things like the military legitimately split, as we are already seeing close to 50% of the voting public see no problems in putting him in as dictator. So carry that into the machinery of war and I could see a split forming in the military and states' militias driving a true armed conflict on American soil. It wouldn't take much for Russia to support it either, or N Korea, or any of the other dictatorial states Trump has built relations with, in the hopes they can be the puppet master pulling his strings.

Again, worst case scenarios in worst case environments with worst case decisions. But the possibility does exist. We can really only hope he isn't elected and his rabid dog supporters eventually get tired of fighting against progress and we see this all die down. That is the greatest likelihood imo. But I will not be overly surprised to see the other side of this materialize either.

Who woulda thunk the zombies of the zombie apocalypse would just be people whose minds were melted by chronic social media exposure?
 
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Red said:
I think we are in a type of cold civil war already. But I have a hard time visualizing an open civil war happening in a modern national security state, as it is. And don’t expect it in the aftermath of this election.

But there will have to be a reckoning of some sort. By which I simply mean coming to terms with…..ourselves. Governing is difficult now, I think we really need to cut back on elevating alternative realities to compete with actual reality. I mean, that would help big time if we could find a consensus reality in our recent political and historical events. Even if Harris won in a landslide, there will still be claims of fraud. I think we need to come to actual terms with what we’ve experienced for the past decade and find a way forward.

We really don’t have a peaceful way forward, presently. These competing realities can, and have, I’ve seen it, tear families apart. And it is tearing the psyche of the country apart. To a degree I have not quite seen before. We don’t need more of this:


View: https://x.com/LoliKneepitLick/status/1843336276256407891



View: https://x.com/JohnH85309848/status/1843338799914668358


Bring back reality, lol….

Or, maybe the Civil Rights era and Vietnam era seem somehow pale(on the home front in the case of Vietnam, even with far more “taking it to the streets” in those days then now), simply because there was no internet and social media in that era. For sure, social media is making our divisions more visible, and maybe simply fooling me into thinking things are worse these days. I don’t expect open warfare, either, but I don’t expect our psychological state in the political sphere to improve soon.

Anyway, that’s a good discussion in the video I posted…..
Click to expand...

Hopefully the democrats aimed at mar a lago
 
LogGrad98 said:
The problem is that until we, 1) get a grip on the disinformation so easily spread through social media and 2) get business out of politics, at least as much as possible, and limit/reform greatly the legality of lobbying and 3) burn through the current crop of racist politicians bent on re-election at all costs and kowtowing to whatever power gets them re-elected then we have no hope of anything improving. And I am seriously doubting any of the above are addressed in any meaningful way in the foreseeable future. I may just be a bit more of a realist (or pessimist, I guess), but I feel like we really aren't that far from a full-on civil war. I think your assessment of a "cold civil war" is spot on, and I am not certain it will take that much to cause it all to spill over into real violence and sustained aggression, call it what you will.

Frankly I think the likelihood of civil war is much great should Trump be re-elected that if he isn't. If he isn't I think you see some violent protests and striking out against politicians and uprisings in a few parts of the country. But once he is elected, and as soon as he starts to really implement Project 2025, I think that would be the catalyst for pushing back against the changes and could lead to all-out war in defense of the nation against his budding fascist regime. And I think you will see things like the military legitimately split, as we are already seeing close to 50% of the voting public see no problems in putting him in as dictator. So carry that into the machinery of war and I could see a split forming in the military and states' militias driving a true armed conflict on American soil. It wouldn't take much for Russia to support it either, or N Korea, or any of the other dictatorial states Trump has built relations with, in the hopes they can be the puppet master pulling his strings.

Again, worst case scenarios in worst case environments with worst case decisions. But the possibility does exist. We can really only hope he isn't elected and his rabid dog supporters eventually get tired of fighting against progress and we see this all die down. That is the greatest likelihood imo. But I will not be overly surprised to see the other side of this materialize either.

Who woulda thunk the zombies of the zombie apocalypse would just be people whose minds were melted by chronic social media exposure?
Click to expand...

I don’t see the type of situation depicted in the recent film Civil War in a near future, if ever, but the complete uncertainty of the moment, and how Trump responds to a close loss, I might as well expect the unexpected. A landslide both popular and electoral by Harris might separate the party from the cult. And put to rest “stolen election”. But a clear landslide is asking for a lot.

Here’s what I think won’t stand: the revised history, the recent history, of the country, offered by Trump and the cult. Electing him means the continuation of a fictional narrative of American history. American history, according to Donald Trump. If the authoritarian nature of that fictional narrative isn’t clear to his cult by now, either because they cannot see it, or would prefer not to talk about that part for political reasons, they will go along. The nation will be expected to accept the Big Lie, which by now is an “historical alternative fact”, and move fwd into the future on a phony narrative of who we are and where we are as a nation.

It’s the triumph of Post Truth politics. Of course you and I and millions of others will recognize the absurdity of it all, and would it not be similar to sane Russian citizens understanding that their airwaves broadcast only fake Russian history? And have to live with it?

He’s already rewritten our history, to his liking, and his follower’s belief. We can expect him to make his own version of justice, based on his fake history. Which he has said he will be, he will be his cult’s “retribution”.

Hopefully, Democrats would control the House.

Electing Trump means electing someone who is rewriting history, and determined to make his own history, including exacting retribution on those who tried to hold him accountable, on the basis of that fake history. No wonder he loves Putin.

That’s a situation that would be resisted to the hilt. I’ll hit the streets again! lol. March on Washington. This time, the response might be much uglier than in times of earlier protests led by the Left. I don’t think that state of things would stand. I don’t know how bad it would get, should it go in this direction.

Dictator? Well, he has the dictator’s preferred history, his rewritten history. He has the dictator’s plans, retribution. Something will have to give. Hopefully, he’s in for a surprise, and not to his liking.
 
Red said:
Of course you and I and millions of others will recognize the absurdity of it all
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LOL. We're in a thread started by you that pushes the idea of overthrowing the US Constitution. A week ago Fran Lebowitz went on Bill Maher's show to urge Biden to dissolve the Supreme Court. Although Trump got a the details wrong, the 2020 election was stolen, and the 2024 election was stolen, and the 2028 election, and so on, and so on, all by legal changes to the way our voting system works. We will never see a GOP President ever again. That era is over. The era of two-party politics has been stolen.

If you want an example of totally fake history that has been adopted as official curriculum by many public schools, Try the 1619 Project. Nearly every real historian in the country, right, left, and center, has trashed that as pro-hate grievance propaganda dressed as pseudo-history, but that hasn't stopped schools from teaching it.

All of the things you claim to fear are you and you recognize none of it. The authoritarian you are so worried will take power is someone you'll vote into office and will cheer loudly as they strip away what used to be constitutionally protected rights.
 
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Sardines said:
How funny would it be if the hurricane went straight to Mar A Logo and just sat there for a day and a half? Nothing is left other than the remaining classified documents Trump managed to hide and they are scattered all over the rubble.

That could possibly cause me to find religion.
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Lol

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk
 
Sardines said:
How funny would it be if the hurricane went straight to Mar A Logo and just sat there for a day and a half? Nothing is left other than the remaining classified documents Trump managed to hide and they are scattered all over the rubble.

That could possibly cause me to find religion.
Click to expand...
Lol

Maybe democrats really do have weather control machines?
 
LogGrad98 said:
We're just happy for you that you can string more than one thought together.
Click to expand...

Was a rough day friend of 20 years died Sunday night. His son and I worked together nearly everyday for most of the last 20 years, its like another loss in the family.

fishonjazz said:
Just speaking for myself here, if trump wins my life will continue on in pretty much the same fashion as it has been. Same for if Kamala wins.

Civil war is so stupid imo.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure about this, if Trump wins and starts rolling out the policies of project 2025 and basically starts to dismantle significant pillars of the American state. The damage that could be done to education, law enforcement, the environment, civil rights could be huge. Additionally if Trump pursues his isolationist foreign policy it will be a disaster for the global balance of power.
 
Red said:
I caught this talk on CSpan a couple of days ago. Obviously, we have problems presently in our body politic. The many political threads demonstrate that fact. One need not agree with his conclusions to appreciate this legal scholar’s thoughtful look at what we may need to do.

Erwin Chemerinsky: No Democracy Lasts Forever

www.commonwealthclub.org www.commonwealthclub.org

Has the U.S. Constitution become a threat to American democracy? Does it need to be dramatically changed or replaced if secession is to be avoided?

Join us in-person or online as Erwin Chemerinsky returns to Commonwealth Club World Affairs to share his deeply troubled thoughts of the Constitution’s inherent flaws. The dean of the UC Berkeley law school came to the sobering conclusion that our nearly 250-year-old founding document is responsible for the crisis now facing American democracy.

Chemerinsky points out that just 15 of the 11,848 amendments proposed since 1789 have passed, and he contends that the very nature of our polarization results from the Constitution’s “bad bones,” which have created a government that no longer works or has the confidence of the public. Yet he says political Armageddon can still be avoided if a new constitutional convention is empowered to replace the Constitution of 1787, much as the Founding Fathers replaced the outdated Articles of Confederation. And if that’s not possible? He has an even more radical proposal: That Americans must give serious thought to forms of secession―including a United States structured like the European Union―based on a recognition that what divides us as a country is, in fact, greater than what unites us.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DWxA2Fxl4E
Click to expand...


Really interesting structural analysis. He made some excellent points, top post. Democratising the electoral college and increasing the number of house of reps members is achievable and a very good start. Then dismantling the jerrymander and creating an independent federal electoral commission to draw electoral boundaries would be a another move that wouldn't require constitutional change. Constitutions are by and large very hard to change, predominately change will come with constitutional crisis, typically when political parties stop following customary norms. (waving at you the supreme court) Fixing the court will be problematic cause its so politicised.
 
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