Game Thread Oct 22, 2025 07:00PM MT: LA Clippers @ Utah Jazz

fishonjazz said:

Trading 2 guys who are playing great and helping the jazz get a lot of wins and have a good record would sound a lot like dirty tanking shenanigans which Austin Ainge said the jazz would no longer do. I guess we might find out if Austin was lying or not.

Click to expand...

I actually disagree. I think there is and should be a distinction between roster moves and in-game fraudulence (faking injuries/pulling good players in crunch time/drawing wack plays).

I think Austin agrees because the Sexton/Clarkson/Collins moves were not trades made to win or preserve asset value or anything that really made much sense besides being bad and clearing the path for the kids.

He could also just have been lying or change his mind on the fraudulence. I’m not and never have been much of a fan of that strategy but sometimes it’s preferable to alternative scenarios (it paid off huge last year, lottery gods notwithstanding).

NUMBERICA said:

The answer to both problems is trading Walker if someone is willing to cough up a worthwhile package.

Within the genius of such a plan (wherein the Jazz could throw a max offer at him this offseason if they wanted) lies it’s potential crippling weakness; trading an impending RFA that isn’t a clear max player will probably ding his trade value substantially.

Click to expand...

Trade him or pay him. If he is playing anywhere near the level we saw last night his value may go up substantially... but the @infection principle of trade value comes in.

It was just such an own goal not to settle something in the 25-30M range and just structure it so its friendly to our future. Outside of an achilles tear he would retain value or be able to recover future value. I'm already pretty insufferable but when we take on dead salary with our cap space so that we can get some seconds and have to pay $35M+ to Walker on a 3+1... yall will just want to put me on ignore.

Would be hilariously sad if we didn't tank hard enough in the two most fruitful drafts in our tank era.

If it’s basically impossible to tank (even after trading Lauri and Walker), then we better be competing for the 1 seed. The nightmare scenario is scrapping to make the play-in and coughing up a lottery pick to an already-emerging dynasty.

A middling year this year will setup a middling decade.

NUMBERICA said:

A middling year this year will setup a middling decade.

Click to expand...

This year doesn't matter any more than last year did any more than the year before that did. This year isn't something magical or decisive any more than any other year. And should the Jazz or any other team tank so m'fing hard that it hurts, their most probable scenario is still a #5-7 pick, that yields some dude that's pretty good, but in no way franchise altering.

ps. And whatever OKC is for the rest of the decade, whether they get the pick or not most probably has little impact on that.

Tanktastic said:

This year doesn't matter any more than last year did any more than the year before that did. This year isn't something magical or decisive any more than any other year. And should the Jazz or any other team tank so m'fing hard that it hurts, their most probable scenario is still a #5-7 pick, that yields some dude that's pretty good, but in no way franchise altering.

ps. And whatever OKC is for the rest of the decade, whether they get the pick or not most probably has little impact on that.

Click to expand...

Yes it is. Team performance isn’t terribly volatile year to year, and it is easy to predict that the Jazz are on an upward trajectory. This is their last chance to get to the top of the draft unless something crazy happens.

As or more importantly, the Jazz have to be terrible assure that they keep their pick, in a year with a seemingly exceptional class of talent at the top. They have one pick, their own, which means they also don’t have a shot at drafting some mid-round player that turns out awesome.

This is as straightforward as it gets. The landscape is completely different next year.

Thee Jazz Fan said:

I really hope we don’t have another repeat of the 2022 2023 season when the Jazz started 10-3 and finished with the 9th pick. That would be a nightmare season

Click to expand...

The Jazz probably could have made the play in at least if they had wanted to that season. I doubt we end up at 9 if we get a start like that.

Handlogten's Heros said:

Would be hilariously sad if we didn't tank hard enough in the two most fruitful drafts in our tank era.

Click to expand...

Two years ago was an historically terrible draft.

framer said:

The Jazz probably could have made the play in at least if they had wanted to that season. I doubt we end up at 9 if we get a start like that.

Click to expand...

Why would we want to make the plan? What’s the point of that? We’re not going anywhere we need a top eight pick nothing more to say nothing more to argue.

framer said:

Two years ago was an historically terrible draft.

Click to expand...

I assumed he was talking about wemby. Who could be a multiple time MVP. Which is a rather fruitful player.

The two years ago time frame you mentioned wasn't in the post you quoted.

Sent from my OPD2203 using Tapatalk

fishonjazz said:

I assumed he was talking about wemby. Who could be a multiple time MVP. Which is a rather fruitful player.

The two years ago time frame you mentioned wasn't in the post you quoted.

Sent from my OPD2203 using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

This is correct. Having half assed tanks in the Wemby and Boozer drafts is just sad… in a kind of funny way?

Tanktastic said:

Ainge was talking specifically about the phantom injuries, sitting guys with "rest" etc. Not actual team building. He will absolutely trade either or both of them if a good enough offer appears.

Click to expand...

Kessler should absolutely be untouchable! Why the Jazz continue to sleep on a guy that outplayed one of the best centers in the league last night, constantly improving to include stretch five and galaxies ahead of Rudy at this juncture of his career is way beyond me!

NUMBERICA said:

Yes it is. Team performance isn’t terribly volatile year to year, and it is easy to predict that the Jazz are on an upward trajectory. This is their last chance to get to the top of the draft unless something crazy happens.

Click to expand...

What what now?

The Jazz have won 37, 31 and 17 games the last three years. This year their O/U was around 19 wins. The team has 8 guys 22 and under. Of those only Ace might change the franchise's direction. Keyonte might be a useful rotation guy. Williams is a bust. Others are still trying to prove they'll even stick.

The only place the Jazz are going right now is crawling in the gutter. Some are hoping we at least see a little bit of that upward trajectory. And others, like you, demand the team stays in the gutter. And then, suddenly, somehow, is fighting to be top of the West.

NUMBERICA said:

As or more importantly, the Jazz have to be terrible assure that they keep their pick, in a year with a seemingly exceptional class of talent at the top. They have one pick, their own, which means they also don’t have a shot at drafting some mid-round player that turns out awesome.

Click to expand...

That is in no way decisive for the Jazz's future. At this point of the year Isaiah Collier was top3 in pretty much every mock his draft season. Whatever the Jazz pick ends up being or who uses it, the player is as likely to be Collier, Williams, Ace or someone really good.

NUMBERICA said:

This is as straightforward as it gets. The landscape is completely different next year.

Click to expand...

No, it is not.

Just next year everyone will repeat the exact same thing with complete amnesia.

Handlogten's Heros said:

Not gonna overreact too much but the tank is in danger. Kessler gonna get like 25% more than whatever the Jazz thought. Legendary overthinking.

We have got to get rid of the overhead camera. Dumb as ****.

Click to expand...

Yep. Whatever financial flexibility they wanted to gain by waiting on Kessler-- I knew it would cost them a minimum of 5 million a year on the next contract. It may be 50 million more for the next contract than what they could have paid him! By the end of this year he is for sure a top 10 center in the league- with upside to be top 5 if the 3 point shooting is for real. His offensive rating was already very high without the 3 pointer... and his differential between offensive rating and defensive rating this year is going to be crazy.

Wemby's first game this season had a +83 differential- with his Ridiculous numbers. Kessler's differential in game one was +89. Just one game but I don't think people realize how much Kessler contributes on the offensive end-- with screens, passing etc.

Tanktastic said:

What what now?

The Jazz have won 37, 31 and 17 games the last three years. This year their O/U was around 19 wins. The team has 8 guys 22 and under. Of those only Ace might change the franchise's direction. Keyonte might be a useful rotation guy. Williams is a bust. Others are still trying to prove they'll even stick.

The only place the Jazz are going right now is crawling in the gutter. Some are hoping we at least see a little bit of that upward trajectory. And others, like you, demand the team stays in the gutter. And then, suddenly, somehow, is fighting to be top of the West.


That is in no way decisive for the Jazz's future. At this point of the year Isaiah Collier was top3 in pretty much every mock his draft season. Whatever the Jazz pick ends up being or who uses it, the player is as likely to be Collier, Williams, Ace or someone really good.


No, it is not.

Just next year everyone will repeat the exact same thing with complete amnesia.

Click to expand...

i don't think there is any question sensabaugh is an nba rotation player based on what he did in the second half of last season, summer league, pre-season and one game into this year. the only question with him, is HOW good is he or can he be - is he a 25 ppg guy at some point, or does he ultimately hover around 15 ppg. It would be shocking if Flip isn't a rotation player in the league - but i don't think it's as much of a lock as sensabaugh.

seattlejazzfan said:

i don't think there is any question sensabaugh is an nba rotation player based on what he did in the second half of last season, summer league, pre-season and one game into this year. the only question with him, is HOW good is he or can he be - is he a 25 ppg guy at some point, or does he ultimately hover around 15 ppg. It would be shocking if Flip isn't a rotation player in the league - but i don't think it's as much of a lock as sensabaugh.

Click to expand...

I think keyonte, flip, wcj, ace, hendricks, brice, kessler are all rotational players (I might be missing someone even). Jazz have done a pretty good job drafting.
Problem is that when you look at teams who win the championship there is usually an mvp on the team. Giannis, steph, sga, jokic, lebron, etc. Now looking at that list and there is only one (lebron) who was a top 5 pick so you can find those mvp throughout the draft but I dont believe we have one currently on the team. I would like one more shot at the top of the draft next season to hope to draft that guy in what should be a great draft.

But mostly I just wanted to say that the jazz have actually drafted pretty good during this tank.

One thing has become clear to me. Coach Hardy could have won 40 plus games each year so far. We had to trade away key players and bench healthy players to keep one arm tied behind his back. This year I think we may need to put Hardy on leave for some fake illness if we want a chance at a top pick. He may be the new Popovich...

seattlejazzfan said:

i don't think there is any question sensabaugh is an nba rotation player based on what he did in the second half of last season, summer league, pre-season and one game into this year. the only question with him, is HOW good is he or can he be - is he a 25 ppg guy at some point, or does he ultimately hover around 15 ppg.

Click to expand...

I did actually have Sensabaugh originally in there with Keyonte. However, I do think there are questions, and to be a 25 ppg player would take some historical level development.

Apart from Brunson every 25 ppg non-center in the NBA the last two years had at least 19-20 ppg in their second season. Sensabaugh had 10.9. And this is on a team where the opportunity to get minutes and shots was wide open.

And I still think he has a good shot at being a rotation player for quite some time, scoring off the bench. But 25 ppg would be out if this world considering what he's done and shown so far.

fishonjazz said:

I think keyonte, flip, wcj, ace, hendricks, brice, kessler are all rotational players (I might be missing someone even). Jazz have done a pretty good job drafting.

Click to expand...

Clayton has played one (1) NBA game. College seniors drafted in the back-half of the 1st round are more likely to end up in Montenegro in five years (hiya, Dok) that become valuable rotation players. Hendricks had a good last two months of his rookie season and is very much a mystery still. Can he find his own niche on the offense, because in today's NBA purely defensive players rarely get full rotation minutes. Flip is fine. But on a team actually competing he wouldn't probably have gotten anything else than garbage time minutes.

fishonjazz said:

I would like one more shot at the top of the draft next season to hope to draft that guy in what should be a great draft.

Click to expand...

I'm sure everyone would like that. But it also has a cost. Miniscule chance at "that guy", meanwhile this team and these players suffering for another 80 games - if the Jazz go the full tank route again. There's no "now we start winning" switch.

fishonjazz said:

But mostly I just wanted to say that the jazz have actually drafted pretty good during this tank.

Click to expand...

It's been ok. Looking back there's really not that many misses. They've picked the best ones out of what's been available, other than Williams. I would say on drafting the Jazz have one very good decision that suits them: taking Ace. Which was seen as a risk, as he was dropping, as the rumours swirled. A team in the Jazz's position has to take those kinds of risks.

Tanktastic said:

I did actually have Sensabaugh originally in there with Keyonte. However, I do think there are questions, and to be a 25 ppg player would take some historical level development.

Apart from Brunson every 25 ppg non-center in the NBA the last two years had at least 19-20 ppg in their second season. Sensabaugh had 10.9. And this is on a team where the opportunity to get minutes and shots was wide open.

And I still think he has a good shot at being a rotation player for quite some time, scoring off the bench. But 25 ppg would be out if this world considering what he's done and shown so far.


Clayton has played one (1) NBA game. College seniors drafted in the back-half of the 1st round are more likely to end up in Montenegro in five years (hiya, Dok) that become valuable rotation players. Hendricks had a good last two months of his rookie season and is very much a mystery still. Can he find his own niche on the offense, because in today's NBA purely defensive players rarely get full rotation minutes. Flip is fine. But on a team actually competing he wouldn't probably have gotten anything else than garbage time minutes.


I'm sure everyone would like that. But it also has a cost. Miniscule chance at "that guy", meanwhile this team and these players suffering for another 80 games - if the Jazz go the full tank route again. There's no "now we start winning" switch.


It's been ok. Looking back there's really not that many misses. They've picked the best ones out of what's been available, other than Williams. I would say on drafting the Jazz have one very good decision that suits them: taking Ace. Which was seen as a risk, as he was dropping, as the rumours swirled. A team in the Jazz's position has to take those kinds of risks.

Click to expand...

There actually is a "we start winning now switch". Really simple. You prioritize winning and getting better and at the same time stop trying to lose and get worse. The jazz literally could have won more games that they did in the Hardy seasons if they simply wanted to. They didn't want to win more though. In fact, they wanted to win less than they did for a few of those seasons.
How much success comes as a result is unknown but the switch is that simple to explain.

Now what "we start winning now" means to each person is subjective. To me it means maximizing the amount of wins we can achieve in a season. Thats pretty simple. Just play the best players as much as possible and make roster moves to improve the team in the short term. We could very very easily start doing that whenever we decide to. Im hoping we flip that switch next season and I think we will. I dont think we have to give OKC our first round pick next season after all.

fishonjazz said:

I think keyonte, flip, wcj, ace, hendricks, brice, kessler are all rotational players (I might be missing someone even). Jazz have done a pretty good job drafting.

Click to expand...

Yeah, rotational players on THIS team.

Key is a regular season 8th guy at most on a contender. Possibly glued to the bench in the playoffs.

Flip will be a career bench player (on non-tanking teams), but I think he'll have a long NBA career.

Hendricks may not be in the league in 5 years. He doesn't have a single skill or ability that pops.

Kessler is obviously a rotational player, possibly a starter depending on the team. His FT shooting will always hold him back.

Brice is a talented but unathletic scorer who needs the ball to be effective, but can't dribble or pass. That's not a great thing to be in the NBA. I see him in Europe or China in 5 years.