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Why liberals should care about a balanced budget.

♪alt13

Well-Known Member
In 2013 the interest paid on the national debt was 222.75 billion dollars. The total budget for the US Department of Education was just under 72 billion and NASA's total budget was just under 18. In fact outside of the big 3(Social Security, Defense, Medicare/Medicaid)the interest on the National debt was more expensive than every department of the federal government.

Set to rise dramatically

Anyone that shopped for a mortgage before the financial crisis can tell you that current interst rates are not normal.(they are incredibly low) Anyone that has any common sense will tell you they can't stay this low in the long run. In 2013 the interest rate for the debt was just 2.4%, compare that to the 20 year average was 5.7% or the 14% high in 1981 and everyone should be concerned.

The congressional budget office estimates that by 2024 just ten years from now the interest on the national debt will be 880 billions dollars. That is about 4 times what it is today and 210 billion more than we spent on the Department of Defense in 2013.


140204182551-interest-costs-debt-620xa.png


The interest on the debt is on pace to seriously threaten the social welfare programs of the US. Maybe y'all should be a bit more concerned.
 
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I have a question.

I have heard alot of talk over the years about the national debt but why does it even matter?

I mean it seems like it just keeos going up but i dont see any consequence or punishment due to the debt going up.

Who do we owe/pay the money too? What do they do to us if we just dont pay?

Dont lots of other countries owe us money? What are we doing to them for not paying us back in a timely manner?
 
I have a question.

I have heard alot of talk over the years about the national debt but why does it even matter?

First of all that is money that could be spent elsewhere. Remember this is interest payments. However that isn't a real problem so long as the debt is a reasonable amount. The real problem is that it is growing much faster than our economy. This means it will become more and more of a burden.

I mean it seems like it just keeos going up but i dont see any consequence or punishment due to the debt going up.

It is like the debt you have. Financing big things to make your life better is a good thing. If you try to finance your lifestyle though eventually you will begin to feel the crunch.

Who do we owe/pay the money too? What do they do to us if we just dont pay?

Lots of different people and organizations. People buy US debt by buying US Treasuries. China for instance owns more than 1 trillion dollars worth. The effect is we pay the Chinese government billions of dollars in interest every year that we could use on our schools or roads. Imagine what our schools would like like if we invested an extra $100 billion into them every year.
Other owners of our debt include financial institutions, other foreign governments, and even individual citizens. We are essentially subsidizing rich people and communist foreign nations through our taxes.


Dont lots of other countries owe us money? What are we doing to them for not paying us back in a timely manner?

Nations where the burden becomes to high are forced to simultaneously and quite drastically raise taxes and cut services. The longer they wait and the higher the debt becomes the more significant the cuts and tax hikes have to be to get them back on track.

If we were to just default on our debt and refuse to pay the consequences would be insane. Our money would lose most of it's value, our entire banking system would collapse, thousands of businesses large and small would cease to be, millions of people would be unemployed and lose their homes(housing crisis times 100), and no one would want lend us any money for a long time. Fortunately we won't default but massive cuts and tax hikes are a real possibility.

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In general, liberals want to balance the budget by a combo of cutting defense and raising taxes; some would also support capping domestic spending, whereas conservatives want to try to balance the budget by cutting domestic spending and cutting taxes. It's a fundamental difference in political philosophy. Both sides can actually be concerned. Y'all should be a bit more honest about that.
 
In general, liberals want to balance the budget by a combo of cutting defense and raising taxes; some would also support capping domestic spending, whereas conservatives want to try to balance the budget by cutting domestic spending and cutting taxes. It's a fundamental difference in political philosophy. Both sides can actually be concerned. Y'all should be a bit more honest about that.

I understand the positions but you don't see democrats or liberal voters make it a priority. Search google news for "interest on the national debt". You will find that more than 90% are going to have a conservative bias. This seems funny to me because interest on the debt gets paid to the well to do(people that have the money to buy treasuries). Why don't we see the Huffington Post constantly complaining that the interest(a subsidy to the rich) is 3 times larger than the department of Education? Why don't any of the liberal posters on Jazzfanz make this complaint or argument.

Also many liberals do make the argument that it doesn't matter.

PS I don't think I fit into the conservative box very well.
 
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I understand the positions but you don't see democrats or liberal voters make it a priority. Search google news for "interest on the national debt". You will find that more than 90% are going to have a conservative bias. This seems funny to me because interest on the debt gets paid to the well to do(people that have the money to buy treasuries). Why don't we see the Huffington Post constantly complaining that the interest(a subsidy to the rich) is 3 times larger than the department of Education? Why don't any of the liberal posters on Jazzfanz make this complaint or argument.

Also many liberals do make the argument that it doesn't matter.

PS I don't think I fit into the conservative box very well.
Liberals are more likely to take a nuanced, Keynesian, counter-cyclical approach: deficit spending is necessary in a recession or a stagnant economy, increase taxes and try to balance the budget in an expanding economy.

What liberals make the argument that it doesn't matter? I remember Dick Cheney saying that back in 2002, but I don't know any liberals that want to claim Cheney as one of their own.
 
Liberals are more likely to take a nuanced, Keynesian, counter-cyclical approach: deficit spending is necessary in a recession or a stagnant economy, increase taxes and try to balance the budget in an expanding economy.

What liberals make the argument that it doesn't matter? I remember Dick Cheney saying that back in 2002, but I don't know any liberals that want to claim Cheney as one of their own.

This thread seems backward to me. I'm left of center and the debt is a huge concern for me. In our local city politics, it is the liberals who are working hard to balance the budget and cut costs, while the supposed conservatives are proposing tax increases and spending for pet projects and raises for their buddies.

I don't know if you can realistically break this down into a left vs. right issue.
 
This thread seems backward to me. I'm left of center and the debt is a huge concern for me. In our local city politics, it is the liberals who are working hard to balance the budget and cut costs, while the supposed conservatives are proposing tax increases and spending for pet projects and raises for their buddies.

I don't know if you can realistically break this down into a left vs. right issue.

There are actually imo very few issues that you can truly make that black and white. People are not talking points, and they have varying opinions that don't always follow the prescribed doctrine of the Left or the Right.
 
Liberals are more likely to take a nuanced, Keynesian, counter-cyclical approach: deficit spending is necessary in a recession or a stagnant economy, increase taxes and try to balance the budget in an expanding economy.

What liberals make the argument that it doesn't matter? I remember Dick Cheney saying that back in 2002, but I don't know any liberals that want to claim Cheney as one of their own.

That is what you seem to be missing there is nothing nuanced about that position given the current circumstances. Keynesian economics falls apart if you don't grow faster than your debt. My argument is in essence a Keynesian one. Because our debt has grown so massive a good economy and increased interest rates will actually make the problem serious. At average interest rates the interest will balloon to nearly a third of the national budget.

Further Keynes never argued for deficits for deficit sake. He called for investment in infrastructure and other projects that would provide a lot of jobs and make our economy more efficient long term. Very little of the US budget can be said to be going towards that. This is largely operational debt that he never would have approved of.
 
That is what you seem to be missing there is nothing nuanced about that position given the current circumstances. Keynesian economics falls apart if you don't grow faster than your debt. My argument is in essence a Keynesian one. Because our debt has grown so massive a good economy and increased interest rates will actually make the problem serious. At average interest rates the interest will balloon to nearly a third of the national budget.

Further Keynes never argued for deficits for deficit sake. He called for investment in infrastructure and other projects that would provide a lot of jobs and make our economy more efficient long term. Very little of the US budget can be said to be going towards that. This is largely operational debt that he never would have approved of.

The irony of teenagers referencing and bragging up Keynes' central planning over the business cycle.
 
This thread seems backward to me. I'm left of center and the debt is a huge concern for me. In our local city politics, it is the liberals who are working hard to balance the budget and cut costs, while the supposed conservatives are proposing tax increases and spending for pet projects and raises for their buddies.

I don't know if you can realistically break this down into a left vs. right issue.

It seems pretty clear that nationally liberal media outlets and liberal voters don't concern themselves with it. Conservative outlets do and conservative voters do. It is kind of heartbreaking for someone like myself. Tea partiers seem to be the only people calling for fiscal discipline but in my view other than that they are bat **** crazy.

Not everyone that uses the term liberal means it as an outright insult. In many aspects I would be considered liberal. Indeed I think more people would characterize me that way than would label me conservative.

The irony of teenagers referencing and bragging up Keynes' central planning over the business cycle.

cute 30 2 kids

TIL libertarian conservatives learn economics.

Let's hear it then. Where am I mistaken/misguided and how. Srs I am an open minded person that would much rather learn than continue believing a falsehood.



or were you just being a condescending prick because you have nothing of value to say.
 
If we ever want to really balance the budget then taxes must be raised and cuts to the defense budget must be done... Not to mention adjustments to Medicaid/Medicare.

2/3 of those the GOP has sworn never to do.
1/3 of those would be very difficult for the Democrats to do.

There's no way we get a balanced budget without raising taxes. All republicans and many democrats have taken on the Norquist pledge.

In other words, a balanced budget is as possible as colonizing the planet Saturn.

It's also funny to act as if liberals don't care about the deficit. There are some things that they won't want to budge on. But liberals from various states have cut deficit spending and balanced the budgets. Obama is daily bashed for the debt but his budget deficit gets smaller and smaller every year despite the GOP's refusal to raise taxes.
 
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I've read a few interesting studies that show the failure of the "Starve the Beast" mantra.

When tax cuts have occurred without offsetting budget cuts, Americans demand more services. More entitlement, more defense, and more wars. They just slap the debt onto Uncle Sammy's credit card.

However, when tax increases have occurred, often, Americans then make cuts to programs deciding which services are necessary.

I often wonder what would have happened between 2000-08 had we been forced to pay up front for the wars, massive government expansion, and Medicare part D? Think any of them would have actually happened? Probably not. Especially Iraq and Medicare part D.

Basically, the best way to shrink government isn't to starve it (as the GOP preaches). But to force Americans to actually pay for it. Then Americans suddenly become aware of the cost of government and are better able to determine which programs and services they truly want.
 
I understand the positions but you don't see democrats or liberal voters make it a priority.

Historically in the US, it's the more liberal administrations that reduce the level of debt, and the more conservative administrations that increase it.
 
Let's hear it then. Where am I mistaken/misguided and how. Srs I am an open minded person that would much rather learn than continue believing a falsehood.



or were you just being a condescending prick because you have nothing of value to say.


Why not...


Anyone that shopped for a mortgage before the financial crisis can tell you that current interst rates are not normal.(they are incredibly low)

There is no such thing as normal interest rates. Furthermore, FoF data has shown us that these historically low rates have been appropriate for this economic environment.


Anyone that has any common sense will tell you they can't stay this low in the long run.

Anyone that has any common sense would not make this claim regarding rates. Just because you want rates to go higher does not mean they have to or wil go higher.


In 2013 the interest rate for the debt was just 2.4%, compare that to the 20 year average was 5.7% or the 14% high in 1981 and everyone should be concerned.

"20 year average" is a cherry picked, useless measuring stick.

Also, the debt doesn't roll over all at once.


The congressional budget office estimates that by 2024 just eight years from now the interest on the national debt will be 880 billions dollars. That is about 4 times what it is today and 210 billion more than we spent on the Department of Defense in 2013.

4 times huh. What is that in real terms? How much of that will make the Treasury-Fed-
treasury loop?


The interest on the debt is on pace to seriously threaten the social welfare programs of the US. Maybe y'all should be a bit more concerned.

Wrong.

The real problem is that it is growing much faster than our economy. This means it will become more and more of a burden.

We are currently buying more of our own debt than we are creating. The national debt has gone down, not up.


It is like the debt you have. Financing big things to make your life better is a good thing. If you try to finance your lifestyle though eventually you will begin to feel the crunch.

Throw this out the window. National debt is in no way comparable to personal finance.


Lots of different people and organizations. People buy US debt by buying US Treasuries. China for instance owns more than 1 trillion dollars worth. The effect is we pay the Chinese government billions of dollars in interest every year that we could use on our schools or roads.

We print paper and exchange it for Chinese goods. How does this make us poorer?

Nations where the burden becomes to high are forced to simultaneously and quite drastically raise taxes and cut services.

Factually incorrect.

Some Euro nations have been forced into austerity because they're chained to a broken system, and refused to ease monetary policy appropriately. Our system is not comparable because we have a central taxing and spending authority. We have the ability to make the adjustments that Euro cannot.

The longer they wait and the higher the debt becomes the more significant the cuts and tax hikes have to be to get them back on track.

Also factually incorrect.

Recent spending cuts have created more federal deficit and have slowed growth. Economists told us this would happen, but the Tea Party budget hawks refused to listen to the "brain dead Keynesian liberal" professionals. They're stuck in this incorrect understanding of how the world works.


If we were to just default on our debt and refuse to pay the consequences would be insane.

Why on earth would we ever default on our debt?


Our money would lose most of it's value, our entire banking system would collapse, thousands of businesses large and small would cease to be, millions of people would be unemployed and lose their homes(housing crisis times 100), and no one would want lend us any money for a long time. Fortunately we won't default but massive cuts and tax hikes are a real possibility.

Nah. We'll just print our way out of the problem if we cannot make the necessary adjustments to keep things in check.


Keynesian economics falls apart if you don't grow faster than your debt.

All economies fail. Except ours, because we print the problem out of existence.
 
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Why not...




There is no such thing as normal interest rates. Furthermore, FoF data has shown us that these historically low rates have been appropriate for this economic environment.




Anyone that has any common sense would not make this claim regarding rates. Just because you want rates to go higher does not mean they have to or wil go higher.




"20 year average" is a cherry picked, useless measuring stick.

Also, the debt doesn't roll over all at once.




4 times huh. What is that in real terms? How much of that will make the Treasury-Fed-
treasury loop?




Wrong.



We are currently buying more of our own debt than we are creating. The national debt has gone down, not up.




Throw this out the window. National debt is in no way comparable to personal finance.




We print paper and exchange it for Chinese goods. How does this make us poorer?



Factually incorrect.

Some Euro nations have been forced into austerity because they're chained to a broken system, and refused to ease monetary policy appropriately. Our system is not comparable because we have a central taxing and spending authority. We have the ability to make the adjustments that Euro cannot.



Also factually incorrect.

Recent spending cuts have created more federal deficit and have slowed growth. Economists told us this would happen, but the Tea Party budget hawks refused to listen to the "brain dead Keynesian liberal" professionals. They're stuck in this incorrect understanding of how the world works.




Why on earth would we ever default on our debt?




Nah. We'll just print our way out of the problem if we cannot make the necessary adjustments to keep things in check.




All economies fail. Except ours, because we print the problem out of existence.

1.Of course interest rates are going to go up at some point, if they don't it means that we are remaining in semi permanent recession worldwide and it is being papered over, literally, by the printing of extra money. That solution cannot go on forever and will eventually have consequences.

2.There are no such things as normal rates, just like there is no such thing as "normal" temperature for climate. There are OPTIMAL ranges that people want to see, and it is completely assured that there will be variations high and low of the historical mean. And there is a historical mean, no?

3. At some point rates will go higher, even pretending there is a possibility that this won't happen is Pollyanna idiocy.

4. Of course as the debt increases the interest will increase. There is almost no room on the low interest side for improvement. All possibilities for change will show increase either because the amount of debt continues to grow or interest rates increase. The most likely forecast for the future is that both will happen, greatly accelerating the real amount of dollars owed in interest.

5. The four times analogy is valid unless you believe the GDP will quadruple in the same amount of time. Perhaps you think that tax receipts will quadruple as well? It means that the interest owed on debt will make up a much larger portion of government spending than it did in the past.

6. Of course increased spending in other areas will limit the amount of social spending available in future years, unless you feel like the American electorate will tolerate massive tax increases, and not just "on the rich."

7. The national debt is not decreasing. We are still spending more as a government than we take in. Nobody with a brain believes you on this point. YOU don't even believe this.

8. Debt is debt. Debt can be useful if used for investment. Right now you are advocating debt for day to day expenses. That is ALWAYS bad debt.

9. Because you assume that that paper will ALWAYS hold the same value. That is more of a wish than a fact. Some other currency was King before the Dollar. The Dollar is not the end of history. Would you take Honduran currency fresh off the press as payment for your services?

10 and on. Your problem is that you accept one interpretation of Keynesian Economics like it is some damn law of nature. It certainly isn't and the penalties for you being wrong are very severe. Its as stupid as picking one climate model and betting the farm on it. You leave no room for variation or possibility for error. I'm not comfortable with that nor should anyone else be. It is however, more acceptable for you because you are not a trained economist. I do have a problem with people who purport to be experts. (Krugman, Piketty, and for that matter Marx) who design their economic theories around their political fantasies and pass it off as truth.
 
1.Of course interest rates are going to go up at some point, if they don't it means that we are remaining in semi permanent recession worldwide and it is being papered over, literally, by the printing of extra money. That solution cannot go on forever and will eventually have consequences.

2.There are no such things as normal rates, just like there is no such thing as "normal" temperature for climate. There are OPTIMAL ranges that people want to see, and it is completely assured that there will be variations high and low of the historical mean. And there is a historical mean, no?

3. At some point rates will go higher, even pretending there is a possibility that this won't happen is Pollyanna idiocy.

4. Of course as the debt increases the interest will increase. There is almost no room on the low interest side for improvement. All possibilities for change will show increase either because the amount of debt continues to grow or interest rates increase. The most likely forecast for the future is that both will happen, greatly accelerating the real amount of dollars owed in interest.

5. The four times analogy is valid unless you believe the GDP will quadruple in the same amount of time. Perhaps you think that tax receipts will quadruple as well? It means that the interest owed on debt will make up a much larger portion of government spending than it did in the past.

6. Of course increased spending in other areas will limit the amount of social spending available in future years, unless you feel like the American electorate will tolerate massive tax increases, and not just "on the rich."

7. The national debt is not decreasing. We are still spending more as a government than we take in. Nobody with a brain believes you on this point. YOU don't even believe this.

8. Debt is debt. Debt can be useful if used for investment. Right now you are advocating debt for day to day expenses. That is ALWAYS bad debt.

9. Because you assume that that paper will ALWAYS hold the same value. That is more of a wish than a fact. Some other currency was King before the Dollar. The Dollar is not the end of history. Would you take Honduran currency fresh off the press as payment for your services?

10 and on. Your problem is that you accept one interpretation of Keynesian Economics like it is some damn law of nature. It certainly isn't and the penalties for you being wrong are very severe. Its as stupid as picking one climate model and betting the farm on it. You leave no room for variation or possibility for error. I'm not comfortable with that nor should anyone else be. It is however, more acceptable for you because you are not a trained economist. I do have a problem with people who purport to be experts. (Krugman, Piketty, and for that matter Marx) who design their economic theories around their political fantasies and pass it off as truth.

I rolled my eyes. There's so much wrong in this.
 
Why not...
There is no such thing as normal interest rates. Furthermore, FoF data has shown us that these historically low rates have been appropriate for this economic environment.

No, but there are historical averages. Would you really expect anyone to assume 2.4% for the foreseeable future?

Anyone that has any common sense would not make this claim regarding rates. Just because you want rates to go higher does not mean they have to or wil go higher.

I don't want them to go up. I want them to stay down while I shop for a second home. geez

"20 year average" is a cherry picked, useless measuring stick.

Also, the debt doesn't roll over all at once.

Provide me with a better measuring stick then.

Also the $880 billion figure is from the Congressional Budget Office, it's not some back of a napkin calculation I dreamed up.

4 times huh. What is that in real terms? How much of that will make the Treasury-Fed-
treasury loop?
4x
Again the Number is from the CBO.
real terms
Are you suggesting that in 8 years we will see 400% inflation, cuz that would be bad.
T-F-T loop
The debt is still paid by taxpayers regardless of who owns it.
nice
We are currently buying more of our own debt than we are creating. The national debt has gone down, not up.
What?
https://www.usdebtclock.org/

Throw this out the window. National debt is in no way comparable to personal finance.
If we could finance everything and have no taxes we would. The analogy was simply to try and illustrate the difference between investment and lack of responsibility. If it doesn't matter what the money is spent on why don't we just buy everyone a puppy?

We print paper and exchange it for Chinese goods. How does this make us poorer?

This is insanely dumb. The strength of our economy relative to China's allows us to buy **** from them. It is not because we are better at printing money.

Factually incorrect.

Some Euro nations have been forced into austerity because they're chained to a broken system, and refused to ease monetary policy appropriately. Our system is not comparable because we have a central taxing and spending authority. We have the ability to make the adjustments that Euro cannot.

1st please find and quote where I posted Euro in this thread. Your trying to frame my arguments for me.(annoying)

2nd Ok let's talk Europe since you want to. The problems in Greece were not created by the ECB(European cental bank) and the Euro zone. Greece is lucky she had responsible neighbors to the north that were able to bail her out. Without Germany and others Greece's problems would have been much worse.


Also factually incorrect.

Recent spending cuts have created more federal deficit and have slowed growth. Economists told us this would happen, but the Tea Party budget hawks refused to listen to the "brain dead Keynesian liberal" professionals. They're stuck in this incorrect understanding of how the world works.

HAHAHAHA. Do you just make **** up. The federal deficit has gone down the last 2 years, srs lolzers.

Why on earth would we ever default on our debt?

Moot. Please read bold below

If we were to just default on our debt and refuse to pay the consequences would be insane. Our money would lose most of it's value, our entire banking system would collapse, thousands of businesses large and small would cease to be, millions of people would be unemployed and lose their homes(housing crisis times 100), and no one would want lend us any money for a long time. Fortunately we won't default but massive cuts and tax hikes are a real possibility.


Nah. We'll just print our way out of the problem if we cannot make the necessary adjustments to keep things in check.




All economies fail. Except ours, because we print the problem out of existence.

Rofl rofl rofl

Do you really believe that other economies don't have central banks that print money? Do you think that the fed just prints money to balance the books? SRS

The fed manages inflation of the currency. They don't make debts go away and they don't pull wealth out of thin air.
 
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