Favors and Other Defensive Players.

[theNBAnerd]

Favors earns himself easy buckets by watching other players being aggressive. If getting easy possessions is so easy, why were 31% of Favors' possessions post-ups, which he completed at just 0.71 points per possession? How many plays per game can you run an effective P&R with Derrick Favors? How many plays per game can end in a transition opportunity for him? You're looking at, what, 10 possessions per game TOTAL? What happens on the rest of the possessions? What can you expect him to provide when the offense breaks down? When the defense is actually keying on him?

Even in much more favorable situations, which were largely created by other players, with less attention and worse opponents (off the bench), Al and Favors were roughly equally efficient scoring the basketball.

thing is, i don't disagree with any of this, but i still think the jazz need to focus more on favors. yes, he is far behind al in terms of post efficiency, but guess what -- that's exactly why i think that should be a priority. his best-case scenario is so obscenely higher than al's that it would be tragic if we don't capitalize on it. we gave up an all-NBA talent to get favors (and kanter, harris and the GS pick, but let's be honest: favors was the central point in that package), so i'm not ready to use his .71 ppp in the post as why he shouldn't play or get the ball down low. i'm using that as why this year should largely be about getting better in that aspect. we're not a title team this year, so we may as well start working on the future, even if that means enduring some growing pains while favors figures out the aspects of his game where he's not as strong.

and again, my original point was just that, overall, al is NOT more effective than derrick from a shooting perspective. yes, i said "keeps the ball" which begs for the inclusion of TOs, but that's not what i meant. i meant that it's a bit of a myth that al is more offensively capable as the shooter than favors/sap (or even kanter).

 

[billyshelby]

thing is, i don't disagree with any of this, but i still think the jazz need to focus more on favors. yes, he is far behind al in terms of post efficiency, but guess what -- that's exactly why i think that should be a priority. his best-case scenario is so obscenely higher than al's that it would be tragic if we don't capitalize on it. we gave up an all-NBA talent to get favors (and kanter, harris and the GS pick, but let's be honest: favors was the central point in that package), so i'm not ready to use his .71 ppp in the post as why he shouldn't play or get the ball down low. i'm using that as why this year should largely be about getting better in that aspect. we're not a title team this year, so we may as well start working on the future, even if that means enduring some growing pains while favors figures out the aspects of his game where he's not as strong.

and again, my original point was just that, overall, al is NOT more effective than derrick from a shooting perspective. yes, i said "keeps the ball" which begs for the inclusion of TOs, but that's not what i meant. i meant that it's a bit of a myth that al is more offensively capable as the shooter than favors/sap (or even kanter).

This all goes back to the Al/Millsap argument. You keep pretending that the stats indicate whether or not a player can create their own shot. Favors most definitely cannot do that at this point. Asked to create his own shot 10 times a game and his efficiency stats would be a train wreck. And as you've pointed out before (which I agree with), we don't have great distributors on the team next season which only makes Favors' road more difficult. At least in Sap's case, he's moderately closer to being a go to guy in the post since he has a reliable step back jumper.

Favors "obscenely higher" than Al as his best case scenario? Strictly offensively, I'd be tickled if Favors got even close to how good Al is already offensively. Combined with his defense he'd be a Top 10 Player. Favors has loads of potential, but offensively has a long way to go still, and isn't in Al's class by a wide margin.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Last year Derrick Favors couldn't score with Matt Bonner guarding him. I'm not holding my breath for him to become a go-to offensive player.

Sadly, this. The guy would hurl up the most difficult of shots, probably making half of them at best.

 

[theNBAnerd]

This all goes back to the Al/Millsap argument. You keep pretending that the stats indicate whether or not a player can create their own shot. Favors most definitely cannot do that at this point. Asked to create his own shot 10 times a game and his efficiency stats would be a train wreck. And as you've pointed out before (which I agree with), we don't have great distributors on the team next season which only makes Favors' road more difficult. At least in Sap's case, he's moderately closer to being a go to guy in the post since he has a reliable step back jumper.

Favors "obscenely higher" than Al as his best case scenario? Strictly offensively, I'd be tickled if Favors got even close to how good Al is already offensively. Combined with his defense he'd be a Top 10 Player. Favors has loads of potential, but offensively has a long way to go still, and isn't in Al's class by a wide margin.

al does one thing well offensively. one.

and as far as the "create your own shot" argument, i'm not impressed with a guy who can create his own shot by holding the ball for more than half of the shot clock. that's 1-on-5 basketball and it's boring and inefficient. it's atlanta hawk basketball, but in the low post instead of at the elbow.

when you have a good team, a good system, and lots of guys who are both willing and able to score AND to move the ball, then the offense creates the shots. what al does isn't called creating his own shot. it's called holding the jazz hostage offensively. and i'm ready to move on from that form of basketball.

 

[billyshelby]

al does one thing well offensively. one.

and as far as the "create your own shot" argument, i'm not impressed with a guy who can create his own shot by holding the ball for more than half of the shot clock. that's 1-on-5 basketball and it's boring and inefficient. it's atlanta hawk basketball, but in the low post instead of at the elbow.

when you have a good team, a good system, and lots of guys who are both willing and able to score AND to move the ball, then the offense creates the shots. what al does isn't called creating his own shot. it's called holding the jazz hostage offensively. and i'm ready to move on from that form of basketball.

First of all, Al does a lot of things well in the low post because he has a very multidimensional game. 8 years into his career, guys still can't stop the moves they know are coming -- the up fake, the up and under, the righty push. If it was so easy to teach, we'd already be seeing Favors and Kanter do ANY of it effectively. The more interesting study would be to give Sap/Favors/Kanter the same number of shots and see how their efficiency numbers would compare to Al. Doubt you'd like to see the results on that.

Secondly, no matter how good a system is, somebody has to be able to create offense by themself or that offense can be well defended. Of Hollinger's Top 10 Eff Off in the NBA last year, only Denver (3), Utah (7), and Phoenix/Indiana (8/9) didn't have true offensive creators. Indy made it to the 2nd round, everybody else not surprisingly got bounced in round one or didn't make the playoffs at all in PHX case.

 

[billyshelby]

As far as the 'creating' shots argument goes, I'd point to one example, a single case that alone proves nothing -- Marc Gasol.

Last year, Randolph got hurt early. Gasol became the centerpiece of Memphis' offense. His numbers dipped precipitously. 53% the year before down to 48. TS down from 58 to 54. Yet he only took 3 more shots a game. Not a small number, but you probably wouldn't expect those drops on 3 shots.

So why'd it happen? Because Gasol previously only took the shots he wanted, the high percentage shots he feasted on, AND he had defenses having to worry about Randolph. Take Randolph out of the equation, and suddenly he's taking 3-6 shots a game he wouldn't previously have taken.

Nobody in their right mind wouldn't want Gasol on their team (forgetting salaries). But the offense with him as the focal point dropped from 16th to 20th (a misleading fall when you consider their number would have been 24th in the previous, non strike year.)

Gasol's a great player. But his inability to create offense is exactly why Memphis re-upped Zach. And Zach is FAR more inefficient than Gasol.

 

[NAOS]

If only he didn't get PnR'ed to death.

 

[jazzfan1132]

new season new story, put those stats in a book we all don't now how DF will play with 15more minutes,

i like core of the tread compering him along with Ibaka (who we could've had -Kosta was higher) and TAJ Gibson.

hope he will be a beast we need him be like Malone.