D
Hayward or Burks?
- Thread starter Getting Traded
- Start date
Hayward. Both of those guys are a joke as a #1 option. Unless we think they're the only guys we can get as our #1, we need to be asking who's a better complementary piece. If we get somebody like Jabari, then Hayward is going to look really, really good. His averages, and consistency, will come up, and all the other components of his game will become more important. If (big if) we get a legit go-to guy, then Burks skill set becomes less important and redundant. I do not believe he will be a #1 option. Perhaps a Nick Young on a lottery team. I know that's an offensive thought because he has some really good and unique skills. But so does Nick Young.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Your constant defense of Ty and twisted view of reality convinces me you are probably one of Ty's children.
DeMarre was QUOTED as saying his game improved by having a coach actually work with him for the first time.
And maybe YOU should actually hire a fact checker before posting.
1. DeMarre shot 76.5% from the line in 2012-13 (entire season with Utah). He shot 77.3 last season in Atlanta. Where's the drop? More importantly, his FG percentage went up from 46-47% (marginal), but his 3-pt FG% improved from 29% to 36%. And equally important, he became a REAL 3-pt threat, shooting 268 in Atlanta vs. 70 in Utah. Sounds to me like his coach in Atlanta found a "hidden" talent, developed it and exploited it.
2. I'd call Millsap a wash. True, his FG% decreased from 49% to 46%, but he was allowed to take more 3's and hit them at a better rate (212 attempts vs. 39 in Utah and 35.8% vs. 33.3% in Utah). He also carried a heavier scoring load with Aldridge out and increased his points per game to a CAREER high 17.9. Again, it appears Atlanta put more emphasis on spreading the floor with Paul and he was utilized offensively more in line with what Sloan had done (Millsap's avg in 2010/11 was 17.3).
3. Mo Williams had statistically the same season as he had previously (.4 percent higher on FG5, but .6 lower on his 3-pt fg%). As for assists, you have to remember he was NOT the PG in LA in 2011-12. They had a pretty good one named Chris Paul. Maybe you've heard of him. So Mo played SG most of the time after he was traded in 2010-11. In Utah, he DID play PG and his assist totals were about the same as he had the two years previously in Cleveland. If you want to split hairs, though, his assists totals were 6.6 and 7.1 in Cleveland, so he technically declined in Utah at only 6.2. I mention this because you argue sometimes at the margins.
4. Devin Harris was an all-star one season in New Jersey, IIRC. He then played on some dismal teams. After declining a couple of seasons to 15 pts/per, he averaged SLIGHTLY more points (15.8) right after the trade for 17 games, then declined to 11.3 in 2011-12. His shooting % did increase back to his early NJ days, but his assists went down. Oh, and since FT% is such an important measuring tool to you, Harris actually shot 9.4% lower than his previous season in NJ. So to say he "improved" is quite a stretch. I'd call this one a wash - at best.
5. Jeremy Evans - has definitely improved. Good for him. He's still a 9th/10th guy off the bench, so not as thrilled as you must be to give credit to your dad.
6. Derrick Favors - marginal improvement. Was a "project" when he was drafted. Most of us would argue he still hasn't improved enough vs. the potential he has. Need to withhold judgment until he's worked with another coach. Oh yeah, he did work during the last offseason with Malone. It was Favors' request to do so. But again, give the glory to your father for any improvement Favors has made.
7. Foye - career averages of 41%/38%. Shot 40%/41% with Utah. 3-PT FG% was about the same as he had in 07-08 with Minnesota. He had a good year in Utah. Last season he shot 41%/38% with Denver. Very slight advantage to "improving" in Utah. Take a bow Ty, your vet did good for you two years ago!
8. Marvin - was he a starter, was he a sub? Ty could never quite decide on his role. His last season in Atlanta, he averaged 10.2 pts and shot 43%/39%. His two years in Utah: 7.2 pts 42%/33% and 9.1 pts on 44%/36%. Sorry, I fail to see how he improved under Ty and his coaching staff.
So franklin, maybe do some actual RESEARCH and back up your claims before calling me a drama queen. But if you remain true to your previous MO you will completely ignore this post and make the same false claims again.
Getting Traded
Banned
Yes, that describes Franklin, at least some of the time.
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]
Banned
My friend, can we not enjoy one good thing without you killing everyone's buzz?
You moan and bitch on every player, everyone but dumb *** Crobin dumb *** Foye dumb *** Jefferson. We just get good coach, he will make whole team all stars so stop waving your dick in everybody face okay.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
True on CJ. Whether it was youth vs. age or the reality of being "unwanted" and made to earn a contract, CJ's improvement came after the Jazz. But somewhere post-Utah he must have really worked to improve his shooting. So maybe there IS hope for a new coach to get through to Hayward and others.
Millsap's game improved and his 3-PT% improved. If he's taking 6 TIMES as many 3's, his overall percentage will naturally decrease a bit as the 212 attempts at 36% contribute more to the overall percentage than his 39 attempts the previous season. Edit: his 2 PT% decreased from 50% with Utah to 49% in Atlanta. Statistically insignificant. In Atlanta, he became a true threat to shoot the 3 (almost 3x per game). In Utah it was just a novelty (0.5 times per game).
As for DeMarre, my defense is his actual quote about finally having a coach to work with him on fundamentals. "I have to give a shoutout to coach Quin [Snyder]," Carroll said in his exit interview. "This is the first year a coach really worked with me on my footwork, my shot, spent time with me. That’s a credit to coach Quin. That shows me that he cares about me as a person, cares about my career."
Hmmm...I guess that IS a "inconvenient fact" for the coaches in Utah who failed him in that respect.
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]
Banned
I must spread the little reputations around first. Sorry my friend
GVC
Well-Known Member
In other words:
1. Your statement about CJ was idiotic.
2. Millsap didn't improve his shooting in Atlanta, as you had claimed. He was used differently. The 11/12 and 12/13 Jazz offenses ranked 6th and 10th in the NBA on a per possession basis. The 13/14 Hawks ranked 18th.
3. Carroll was a fringe player before arriving in Utah. Not only did he become an NBA rotation player in Utah, his shooting improved while in Utah...
Your ******** never ends.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Sorry, Millsap DID improve his 3 PT shooting in Atlanta. And his 2-pt % was statistically about the same.
Carroll improved his overall game.....................A LOT! And he says it was because of the coaching in Atlanta. Kudos to the Jazz GM for picking him up off waivers. He was buried behind a deeper bench in Denver. Jazz needed a SF and they were able to find 16 mins/per for him. Is a player going to improve with playing time and being on a NBA roster? Hell yeah. I could go into Jazz camp and improve my skills. But something Quin did with Demarre and SA did with Kawhi, Mills, etc. is much different and better than what Utah has been doing to date.
CJ had declined with the Jazz. I NEVER attributed that solely to Corbin in my original post, did I? In fact, I never mentioned Corbin. I just said with better coaching maybe there was hope for our current players to improve.
Your ******** never ends in terms of blind and irrational support for Ty. I respect you for your knowledge of the CBA and often defer to you and ask you to clarify certain points (or correct me if I'm wrong).
My original post was never meant to be a condemnation of Ty. In fact, if what Demarre said was true, the ENTIRE player development program needs to be looked at. He credits his success to Quin working with him FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS CAREER. So obviously, the player development guys for 2 years (I believe that would have included Sanders, Jones, Jensen and Bryant) FAILED him. I only refuted franklin after he posted misleading or entirely WRONG data.
The difference with Quin is that he HAS been a proven player development coach, Carroll just being the latest example. And Dennis wants to model our system after SA's, which places an emphasis on player development. Don't think there was enough of that under Sloan and Ty, especially at the fringes. Sure, you are always going to have improvement. A player doesn't come from 1 year of college as a finished product. Is LBJ better than he was when he came into the league? Kobe was shooting bricks in the first few playoff series against Utah. He was far from the Black Mamba. Great players will do a lot of development on their own. Others need a lot of coaching.
IMO, Ty is a decent coach...if he has a veteran team. But it just didn't work once Paul, Randy and Mo were let go. Then the emphasis is on development and Ty AND HIS STAFF didn't show an enough aptitude for that. And don't take just my word. Lindsey was the one who set the standard of evaluating on player development and improvement in defense. Ty wasn't retained so he failed badly enough on one or both of those measurements.
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Sexual Favors
Well-Known Member
I know this isn't supposed to be an option, but I keep both. They both do different things. Hayward had a 24.1 AST% last year. That is a great #.
Hayward can play SG and SF at times
Alec can play SG, and PG situationally with other playmakers like Hayward out there.
Drafting someone like Gordon, you could do
Burke
Burks
Hayward
Gordon
Favors
Small ball,
Or
Burks
Hayward
Gordon
Kanter
Favors
as big ball, and everything in between.
Hayward can play SG and SF at times
Alec can play SG, and PG situationally with other playmakers like Hayward out there.
Drafting someone like Gordon, you could do
Burke
Burks
Hayward
Gordon
Favors
Small ball,
Or
Burks
Hayward
Gordon
Kanter
Favors
as big ball, and everything in between.
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]
Banned
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
^^
Getting back to the topic, I agree with SF. Why does it have to be one or the other? Every team needs at least a 3-man rotation at the wing positions. Jazz have 2 currently on the roster.
Getting back to the topic, I agree with SF. Why does it have to be one or the other? Every team needs at least a 3-man rotation at the wing positions. Jazz have 2 currently on the roster.
GVC
Well-Known Member
I laughed.
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]
Banned
PKM;durpa durpa durpa durp.[/QUOTE said:
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
Burks can be a go to scorer. He gets to the free throw line consistently. His outside shot has improved. His passing has improved.
Hayward hasn't improved on anything besides maybe he playmaking. but to be honest I don't think that was an improvement as much as he just got the ball more.
I wish we could trade Hayward. I hope we sign and trade him to someone else and get a good rotation player.
Burks will be the better player but I am afraid DL likes Hayward more.
Hayward hasn't improved on anything besides maybe he playmaking. but to be honest I don't think that was an improvement as much as he just got the ball more.
I wish we could trade Hayward. I hope we sign and trade him to someone else and get a good rotation player.
Burks will be the better player but I am afraid DL likes Hayward more.
fishonjazz
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Contributor
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[size/HUGE] boobs [/size];848713 said:
this.
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
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Burks
lulz