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How should the Jazz organization be run?

JazzMan4Life

Well-Known Member
Contributor
This is a topic I'm still mulling over and would like others thoughts on.

Should we view our assets logically and calculate every move based on statistics? Should we focus on relationships and create an environment in the NBA that no other team has? Should we go full 'trust the process' like Philly? Should we strive to be great constantly like the Spurs?

Let me know what you think. TIA.
 
This is a topic I'm still mulling over and would like others thoughts on.

Should we view our assets logically and calculate every move based on statistics? Should we focus on relationships and create an environment in the NBA that no other team has? Should we go full 'trust the process' like Philly? Should we strive to be great constantly like the Spurs?

Let me know what you think. TIA.

So you have a few models you've identified:

1. The Houston model is to calculate every move based on statistics. If your inputs are correct, you can really create some magic. This "moneyball" style requires you to stay ahead of the curve, as it's a copycat league. Aesthetically speaking, I would rather lose with Hood than win with Harden with that ****ing draw through move to get those ******** fouls.

2. The Golden State/Heat model is to focus on relationships to create a unique environment. They have this crazy culture with Curry/Draymond/Kerr. That situation is like once-in-a-lifetime because how are you going to have crazy Silicon Valley money plus A cap spike, plus Steph Curry playing like Air Bud for 40 cents on the dollar, and then getting Durant. The Heat have done it with Pat Reilly. Quin Snyder might become like Pat Reilly but he's nowhere close to that yet.

3. Trust the Process. That's Philly. Let's all remember that Philadelphia still isn't good. Their fans have just decided that they're good now. They probably will be awesome once Simmons and Fultz and Embiid all get online. We tried the soft process with Ty Corbin. That sucked so bad. I don't have it in me for another round. Neither do the Millers or Dennis Lindsey. Lest we forget that Hinkie got ****canned for trying it because it was deemed such a disgrace at the time.

4. The San Antonio model is to win on operational excellence. This is obviously what the Jazz are trying to do. If you can hammer the rock by doing every single little thing right, one day the rock will split open. Honestly, given the constraints facing the Jazz (media-market size, national perception, not a coastal city, not a city well-suited for an average NBA player, and so on), this is probably the only approach that is feasible. You got Rudy Gobert who is probably as close to a Tim Duncan impact player you're going to get. Fill it out.

I would add
5. The New York Knick model. Which is to just **** the bed for decades.
6. The Cavaliers model. Just let LeBron James manage the personnel. Also only Comic Sans.
7. The Boston model. Just playing man **** that team.
 
I think recency bias is affecting your answer. I would honestly like your opinion on this.
I did a quick scan of memory and can't think of anyone off the top of my head that the Jazz kept in UFA besides the obvious two (and Memo, which was a terrible mistake). Outside of the Jazz, how many top-flight players have been staying anywhere in UFA?

I'm alluding to shamelessly tanking and eventually ending up with a bunch of good players all at once. The answer no one likes but everyone should accept as the most likely to get you the players necessary to ascend to the top.

I honestly think this team is mostly-cute. The Jazz are going to be the coolest treadmill team for years to come. And I'm fine with that. Might as well be the coolest iteration of what you are and hope a meteor falls out of the sky than... not, I guess.
 
So you have a few models you've identified:

1. The Houston model is to calculate every move based on statistics. If your inputs are correct, you can really create some magic. This "moneyball" style requires you to stay ahead of the curve, as it's a copycat league. Aesthetically speaking, I would rather lose with Hood than win with Harden with that ****ing draw through move to get those ******** fouls.

2. The Golden State/Heat model is to focus on relationships to create a unique environment. They have this crazy culture with Curry/Draymond/Kerr. That situation is like once-in-a-lifetime because how are you going to have crazy Silicon Valley money plus A cap spike, plus Steph Curry playing like Air Bud for 40 cents on the dollar, and then getting Durant. The Heat have done it with Pat Reilly. Quin Snyder might become like Pat Reilly but he's nowhere close to that yet.

3. Trust the Process. That's Philly. Let's all remember that Philadelphia still isn't good. Their fans have just decided that they're good now. They probably will be awesome once Simmons and Fultz and Embiid all get online. We tried the soft process with Ty Corbin. That sucked so bad. I don't have it in me for another round. Neither do the Millers or Dennis Lindsey. Lest we forget that Hinkie got ****canned for trying it because it was deemed such a disgrace at the time.

4. The San Antonio model is to win on operational excellence. This is obviously what the Jazz are trying to do. If you can hammer the rock by doing every single little thing right, one day the rock will split open. Honestly, given the constraints facing the Jazz (media-market size, national perception, not a coastal city, not a city well-suited for an average NBA player, and so on), this is probably the only approach that is feasible. You got Rudy Gobert who is probably as close to a Tim Duncan impact player you're going to get. Fill it out.

I would add
5. The New York Knick model. Which is to just **** the bed for decades.
6. The Cavaliers model. Just let LeBron James manage the personnel. Also only Comic Sans.
7. The Boston model. Just playing man **** that team.

This is a GREAT post. If you haven't repped this man/woman, please do so now.
 
So you have a few models you've identified:

1. The Houston model is to calculate every move based on statistics. If your inputs are correct, you can really create some magic. This "moneyball" style requires you to stay ahead of the curve, as it's a copycat league. Aesthetically speaking, I would rather lose with Hood than win with Harden with that ****ing draw through move to get those ******** fouls.

2. The Golden State/Heat model is to focus on relationships to create a unique environment. They have this crazy culture with Curry/Draymond/Kerr. That situation is like once-in-a-lifetime because how are you going to have crazy Silicon Valley money plus A cap spike, plus Steph Curry playing like Air Bud for 40 cents on the dollar, and then getting Durant. The Heat have done it with Pat Reilly. Quin Snyder might become like Pat Reilly but he's nowhere close to that yet.

3. Trust the Process. That's Philly. Let's all remember that Philadelphia still isn't good. Their fans have just decided that they're good now. They probably will be awesome once Simmons and Fultz and Embiid all get online. We tried the soft process with Ty Corbin. That sucked so bad. I don't have it in me for another round. Neither do the Millers or Dennis Lindsey. Lest we forget that Hinkie got ****canned for trying it because it was deemed such a disgrace at the time.

4. The San Antonio model is to win on operational excellence. This is obviously what the Jazz are trying to do. If you can hammer the rock by doing every single little thing right, one day the rock will split open. Honestly, given the constraints facing the Jazz (media-market size, national perception, not a coastal city, not a city well-suited for an average NBA player, and so on), this is probably the only approach that is feasible. You got Rudy Gobert who is probably as close to a Tim Duncan impact player you're going to get. Fill it out.

I would add
5. The New York Knick model. Which is to just **** the bed for decades.
6. The Cavaliers model. Just let LeBron James manage the personnel. Also only Comic Sans.
7. The Boston model. Just playing man **** that team.

Ehh, all those models have the same thing in common: Get the best talent.

1. Houston has traded for theirs
2. Golden State caught fire in the draft then used that to snowball into a KD signing because of the cap-spike and 2nd Curry contract
3. Philly has the most distinct "model" to me in how they refused to be good for a while, but they had huge draft misses and bad injury luck (very similar to Utah)
4. Spurs are got supremely lucky by having Robinson get injured for the season which let them draft Tim Duncan, who was elite in his rookie year. That let them win rings early and they snowballed that w/ destroying the draft. The early success led to their stars have a high level of organizational loyalty which made their franchise easier to manage financially.

I would say Spurs/Golden State are very similar in that they have great systems that allow them to develop replacement level players into rotation worthy players. They also have the "destroying the draft", especially w/ later round picks and both have 2nd round super-stars. Other teams like Cleveland and the Lakers of the past kind of refused to do this and just relied on more washed up vets instead of developing players. I think this is something DL wants to emulate that is a unique feature that not all teams know how/have the patience to do.

So I would say the model is get a star(s) (either through trade or draft), nail the draft (even if you are drafting late, but especially if you have early round picks), and have enough early success were your stars want to stay.

Utah had the stars, but they had enough draft misses in the lottery that set them back, not allowing them to have enough early success to gain the loyalty of Hayward.

If Utah nails the picks that became Kanter, Burks, Exum, and Burke then who are the Jazz? Hell, if Utah just drafted Kawhi Leonard instead of Burks, where are the Jazz? Do they have multiple championships? Does Hayward stay and we have a 3-headed monster of Gobert/Hayward/Leonard?

By the same question, if Golden State never drafts Draymond Green or they get Alec Burks instead of Klay Thompson, where are they? You just can't afford to miss in the draft.

*And this isnt meant to be a criticism, just an example that a lot of consecutive luck is needed to build a true contender*

The Jazz have to nail at least one or two more draft picks (in addition to Mitchell developing into a starter, hopefully border-line allstar) if they ever want to be an elite team.

TL/DR: The draft is the most important thing in any model
 
I agree talent is the most import part of any equation. The question is how do you get said talent?

Trade - This is a way a few of the teams have been built. The problem is you have to have assets in order to be able to trade for top flight players. Acquiring those seems a great way to prepare unless you aren't willing to part with said assets (ie Danny Ainge)

Draft - you can draft a competitive roster but it becomes tricky. Talent evaluation is has come a long ways in the past 20 years and with basketball a world sport it the pool to pull said talent from has increased.

development - This is tied into the draft but it is also the direction the Jazz seem to be preaching. To be able to develop talent with in. The ability to have a middling talent and make them into a much better player. This has a lot to do with finding players that work to become better. This also has to do with taking players that a either freaks athletically or physically and making basketball players out of them.

Culture - This is what you see when you look at the spurs. Yes they got leonard but players want to go there because of the culture of winning. This is tough to develop and some thing above needs to happen to make this a reality

Coaching - This is one that gets left off the list a lot but look at GSW. They were good but not great until Kerr came in and develop a game plan to match the talent that they have. The Jerry sloan coaches of the past are jut that things of the past. the best coaches are those that look at the talent that they have and create plays and game plans that suffice to the talent that they have.

***The most important key is talent evaluation and the the ability to find talent later in the draft.
 
Cy's right. And for us, it's probably more crucial than other teams who can get stud free agents.

That said, clear the slate clean and the best path for us would be the Hinkie model. Dude crushed the entire process and got run out of town for it.
 
Cy's right. And for us, it's probably more crucial than other teams who can get stud free agents.

That said, clear the slate clean and the best path for us would be the Hinkie model. Dude crushed the entire process and got run out of town for it.

He crushed the process when he drafted Jahlil Okafor? Another example of a huge mistake that might hold them back from ever being an elite contender. They could have had Porzingis and Embiid as their starting front line.
 
Touché.

But yes, I'd say drafting Embiid, Simmons, Fultz, Saric, Korky, and Luwawu is crushing the process.

Hinkie wasn't Fultz, Simmons, Korky, or Luwawu (though he does deserve a good amount of credit for them certainly).

I think Hinkie was too rigid to his model. He drafted 3 centers in a row because they were "best available".
 
Ehh, all those models have the same thing in common: Get the best talent.

1. Houston has traded for theirs
2. Golden State caught fire in the draft then used that to snowball into a KD signing because of the cap-spike and 2nd Curry contract
3. Philly has the most distinct "model" to me in how they refused to be good for a while, but they had huge draft misses and bad injury luck (very similar to Utah)
4. Spurs are got supremely lucky by having Robinson get injured for the season which let them draft Tim Duncan, who was elite in his rookie year. That let them win rings early and they snowballed that w/ destroying the draft. The early success led to their stars have a high level of organizational loyalty which made their franchise easier to manage financially.

I would say Spurs/Golden State are very similar in that they have great systems that allow them to develop replacement level players into rotation worthy players. They also have the "destroying the draft", especially w/ later round picks and both have 2nd round super-stars. Other teams like Cleveland and the Lakers of the past kind of refused to do this and just relied on more washed up vets instead of developing players. I think this is something DL wants to emulate that is a unique feature that not all teams know how/have the patience to do.

So I would say the model is get a star(s) (either through trade or draft), nail the draft (even if you are drafting late, but especially if you have early round picks), and have enough early success were your stars want to stay.

Utah had the stars, but they had enough draft misses in the lottery that set them back, not allowing them to have enough early success to gain the loyalty of Hayward.

If Utah nails the picks that became Kanter, Burks, Exum, and Burke then who are the Jazz? Hell, if Utah just drafted Kawhi Leonard instead of Burks, where are the Jazz? Do they have multiple championships? Does Hayward stay and we have a 3-headed monster of Gobert/Hayward/Leonard?

By the same question, if Golden State never drafts Draymond Green or they get Alec Burks instead of Klay Thompson, where are they? You just can't afford to miss in the draft.

*And this isnt meant to be a criticism, just an example that a lot of consecutive luck is needed to build a true contender*

The Jazz have to nail at least one or two more draft picks (in addition to Mitchell developing into a starter, hopefully border-line allstar) if they ever want to be an elite team.

TL/DR: The draft is the most important thing in any model

Absolutely. These models all presuppose that you do not **** up the draft. If you **** up the draft you are just Sacramento.

That's why there is no Sacramento model.
 
2 things that need to happen this coming year to get that Jazz closer to contention

First - Give the young guys as much playing time as you can and see what you have. IF they can not get "it" trade them away for draft picks: Hood and Exum with Mitchell and Gobert the development
second - decide who is and who is not part of the future: Favors and Burks. If they are not part of the future trade them away.
 
I did a quick scan of memory and can't think of anyone off the top of my head that the Jazz kept in UFA besides the obvious two (and Memo, which was a terrible mistake). Outside of the Jazz, how many top-flight players have been staying anywhere in UFA?

I'm alluding to shamelessly tanking and eventually ending up with a bunch of good players all at once. The answer no one likes but everyone should accept as the most likely to get you the players necessary to ascend to the top.

I honestly think this team is mostly-cute. The Jazz are going to be the coolest treadmill team for years to come. And I'm fine with that. Might as well be the coolest iteration of what you are and hope a meteor falls out of the sky than... not, I guess.

I think Deron would have stayed if the team had maintained deep playoff runs instead of regressing with Al Jefferson. I don't think it's a given at all that Utah will always lose players in UFA, especially when they have built a solid team.

I do agree though, that in the future it would be best to err on the side of caution in regards to UFAs. With Haywood, DL just cut it too close that by the time it looked like Haywood would leave, even with having a good team built around him, it was too late to do anything except ride it out and hope for the best. If DL had it to do over again, I'd expect he'd go all in on winning now a year earlier, or accept the fact that losing Haywood was too much of a risk, and trade him away for the best deal possible.
 
Absolutely. These models all presuppose that you do not **** up the draft. If you **** up the draft you are just Sacramento.

That's why there is no Sacramento model.

But there really is no difference between the Golden State and San Antonio model. One just happened at the perfect time to take advantage of CBA changes.

The way I see it is there are 2 models: Focus on the draft or focus on the trade/FA market. Every team operates at some degree in between those 2. Philly is the extreme end of the draft and Miami (Lebron years) was the extreme end of the trade/FA market.
 
Hinkie wasn't Fultz, Simmons, Korky, or Luwawu (though he does deserve a good amount of credit for them certainly).

I think Hinkie was too rigid to his model. He drafted 3 centers in a row because they were "best available".

He wasn't Fultz. My bad.

And I guess you can't say Korky or Luwawu because we don't know if he would've drafted those two. But in essence was Simmons.

And every Philly fan was livid when he was fired.
 
2 things that need to happen this coming year to get that Jazz closer to contention

First - Give the young guys as much playing time as you can and see what you have. IF they can not get "it" trade them away for draft picks: Hood and Exum with Mitchell and Gobert the development
second - decide who is and who is not part of the future: Favors and Burks. If they are not part of the future trade them away.

Exum and Mitchell need to play a combined, rock bottom of 35 minutes a game on average.
 
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