Quotes from Cavs' forums-"Fouling a 3 pt shooter three times in the last 3 minutes of the game?!?! Are you kidding"

[fishonjazz]

For a while that was true with Harden moves and those have been neutered a lot. Refs largely ignore Olynyk now, even when he gets fouled. Clarkson did jump forward, but it didn't seem too unnatural, he was trying to get to an open spot, and he drained it.

From what I have seen, refs know player tendencies, and look for them. Giricek was called for travel all the time, because the refs knew he moved his pivot before dribbling. Refs know Olynyk flops more than that 12 pound brown trout you caught last week, and they penalize him by not calling even legitimate fouls. Yet Kelly is too ****ing stupid to realize it and would rather flop than fight for a board. It drives me ****ing crazy!

There is a difference between taking advantage of a rule, and flopping as Tremendous tried to relate by moving to Harden. I'm for rules to keep players safe, and I am also for punishing players that continually flop or make unnatural moves. What Clarkson did was in no way that situation.

I agreed about what clarkson did last game already. In fact this is the third time.
What im talking about is many times this season where the defender wasn't coming into the shooters landing space. The defender was in position with a hand up and the shooter jumped way forward and intentionally came down on the defender and fell down and got a call from the refs. Me no likey when that happens. Agree to disagree.

 

[bookworm]

Yes Lavert made stupid plays. I saw replay only watched JC land. Pictures show Lavert also jump forward.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

I agreed about what clarkson did last game already. In fact this is the third time.
What im talking about is many times this season where the defender wasn't coming into the shooters landing space. The defender was in position with a hand up and the shooter jumped way forward and intentionally came down on the defender and fell down and got a call from the refs. Me no likey when that happens. Agree to disagree.

Sorry, I wasn't necessarily referencing that to you about Clarkson, I know you agreed on that point. I guess my question is where are the egregious examples over the last few years when they have been calling these? I watch a ton of basketball, and I can't think of a situation where a flagrant was called where the defender didn't enter the shooters landing area.

The rule states that coming under feet isn't automatically flagrant, only if deemed reckless, which coming under the shooter zone in front of them tends to be flagrant this year. I've seen at least a few shots this year where they reviewed and did not call it flagrant. Unnatural motions are supposed to be taken into account, although the NBA tends to allow some leeway on advantaging the shooter based on contact, but the defender on if a foul is flagrant.

This started after Kawhi was injured in the playoffs a few years ago when Zaza undercut him and I think Horford did the same think to M. Morris the same playoffs. Both were overly aggressive with no need to close out as far as they did. Horford did the same damn thing to Curry last year. And Curry spread his legs, but if someone closed out on me I'd probably try to spread my legs unnaturally to avoid contact.

I just have not seen flagrants called unless the defender comes into the shooters landing area. And I know I have seen fouls called but not automatically upgraded where the shooter moved unnaturally, or the defender was already in the landing area. Not sure how they can do it any different. I'd appreciate some examples to show what you are talking about.

 

[fishonjazz]

Sorry, I wasn't necessarily referencing that to you about Clarkson, I know you agreed on that point. I guess my question is where are the egregious examples over the last few years when they have been calling these? I watch a ton of basketball, and I can't think of a situation where a flagrant was called where the defender didn't enter the shooters landing area.

The rule states that coming under feet isn't automatically flagrant, only if deemed reckless, which coming under the shooter zone in front of them tends to be flagrant this year. I've seen at least a few shots this year where they reviewed and did not call it flagrant. Unnatural motions are supposed to be taken into account, although the NBA tends to allow some leeway on advantaging the shooter based on contact, but the defender on if a foul is flagrant.

This started after Kawhi was injured in the playoffs a few years ago when Zaza undercut him and I think Horford did the same think to M. Morris the same playoffs. Both were overly aggressive with no need to close out as far as they did. Horford did the same damn thing to Curry last year. And Curry spread his legs, but if someone closed out on me I'd probably try to spread my legs unnaturally to avoid contact.

I just have not seen flagrants called unless the defender comes into the shooters landing area. And I know I have seen fouls called but not automatically upgraded where the shooter moved unnaturally, or the defender was already in the landing area. Not sure how they can do it any different. I'd appreciate some examples to show what you are talking about.

FWIW im not just talking about flagrants. i see plays were shooters jump way far forward to try to land on the defenders feet and get a foul called (no flagrant) where the defender did nothing wrong. Shooter gets 3 free throws. i dont like it.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

FWIW im not just talking about flagrants. i see plays were shooters jump way far forward to try to land on the defenders feet and get a foul called (no flagrant) where the defender did nothing wrong. Shooter gets 3 free throws. i dont like it.

Fair enough, but I don't know that players are jumping forward more than in the past. In game shots are dynamic, and you adjust to get space.

If you are a defender, you are reacting to a shooter, and can generally make sure to defend outside the landing zone. To say the defender did nothing wrong goes against the rules, unless the defender was stationary/not moving into the landing area when the shooter shot. I don't know that I have ever seen a call where a defender was just standing there and was called for a landing space foul, but if it has, and I'd love to see some examples, I'd agree it would be absurd. I don't necessarily disagree, but the times I have seen these calls, they all seem pretty reasonable. I'm sure like any foul, refs have made bad calls, but I am not seeing rampant calls where a shooter is jumping into an occupied zone and getting fts. And I watch a lot of ball.

Like anything, if a player jumps unnaturally, the refs will adjust to that player. I also notice that when a iffy foul is called, the refs tend to make it up on the other end. I would be ok if a particular play was ruled not "reckless" per the rules, that it was just side out and not 3 fts as it really is a foul after the shot, but then you have an issue if the shot goes in. Either part of the shot, or a separate foul.

I actually hate the Harden rule because it isn't enough. If I am standing there, and you throw your arms in my zone, it shouldn't even be a foul. They don't give shots anymore, but gets a team closer to the bonus/ft and can put players into foul trouble. It should be a non-call.