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Some on here say that the players won't tank.

green

green

Well-Known Member
My question is, why not? If Utah has 15 wins come March, and Hayward is averaging 18 and 5, and Favors is averaging 17 and 8, what do they have to play for? What happens if they get sick of getting their butts kicked every night? They can't do anything to improve their stock, if they are putting up those numbers, they are getting paid. All they can do at that point is hurt their stock (say if Hayward goes on a cold streak and drops his ppg).

So, if March 10th hits, and the Jazz have 15 wins, why would Hayward keep playing? Why wouldn't he say "screw this, I'm tired, my team sucks, and my ankle hurts. I'm taking a couple weeks off."

Then the next question becomes, why would the Jazz care? Heck, if March 10th hits, and the Jazz only have 15 wins, and I'm watching practice and Favors says, "Whew, I'm sore today." If I own the Jazz, I tell Favors to take the night off, because I want him healthy. Get that foot healed. Get that back strong. I want Wiggins.
 
I've played organized sports. If I am not competing, I can't even get on the field. In fact, I can't exercise without having someone to compete against. If you don't mind our core four becoming like Biedrins, then by all means, tank away.
 
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Self respect, competition, anger, improvement, fan appeasement

Or how about the millions the Jazz are paying them to play their butts off.
 
Those of you asking me if I have played organized sports are missing the point. It isn't the same for these athletes. Its a job. You can't compare your athletic experiences to theirs. You have to compare your job to theirs.

If you know that your boss is quitting in the next month, and that you are getting a new direction, and things will get better fast, what do most people do?

The coast. They take it easy, because they know that next month, the new guy will be there, and they will have to be better than they were before to impress the new guy. No different here. If Utah hits March and they only have 15 wins, you know Corbin is gone. You know you will get paid. You know you will have a top 4 pick (at worst) and have your team leader coming in. You know you will have 30 million spent on good vets, maybe even another max player. Why kill yourself for two months? Because some guy who dominates church ball "competes every time he steps on the court"?
 
Church ball isn't organized.

Um, have you heard of 'layoffs'? Sure these guys have guaranteed contracts I know, but if they stop trying, they become Biedrins and fall to the back of the bench and eventually get traded for cap space to a team who doesn't intend to use them at all. Not good for the career stats or future contracts.
 
Stoked said:
Self respect, competition, anger, improvement, fan appeasement

Or how about the millions the Jazz are paying them to play their butts off.
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I love your answer, and in a perfect world, I would agree with you 100%.

BUT, here is how I would respond:

self respect - I get this. It should be there. BUT, when your team pays Jefferson, Williams and Biedrens to suck, brings in Lucas III and has Evans as your backup PF, and keeps Corbin around, it has to be HARD to fight for that team.

competition - 15 wins 3/4ths of the way through the season, your team sucks. You may be awesome, but you are playing with a lot of crappy players. You know you are going to lose. It's like when I play rec ball now. I don't give 100%, because there is always a couple of guys out there who aren't coordinated enough and try too hard. It's not worth blowing my knee out over a rec game. Favors and Hayward will feel the same, especially if their numbers are good. It's not worth tearing an ACL to get another win or two when you know you are going to get paid.

anger - this is a real issue. You want the Jazz to suck this year. Big time. 10 wins is fine. BUT, the Jazz organization have to do a TON this offseason to dispel this anger. This season is going to SUCK for Burke, Hayward, Favors and Kanter and possibly Burks. They are going to hate it. None of them have ever lost how they are going to lose. They will probably hate Utah by the end of the year and that is ok. If they take that anger and bust their butts, then it was a good year.

NOW, the Jazz have to be angry as well and show that anger by bringing in a new coach, by drafting a kid that comes in and competes AND has amazing natural talents. They have to bring in some good FA's including a couple of guys that help right away (Millsap is the perfect example of this). Maybe even toss the max at Kobe, leak it out that you have offered LeBron a deal. You don't have to get these guys, but you have to show that you are going after them. It shows these guys that, "yeah, last year sucked, but we have Wiggins now, and we are going to win a title. Thanks for suffering through that."

Improvement - that doesn't happen in games as much as we want to believe it does. And you can accomplish all the improvement you need in 30 mins a night for 60 games. You don't need 82 games to do that.

fan appeasement - Hayward doesn't care about us. Sorry. He cares about being a good basketball player, winning and money. If he gets two of those and knows the third isn't realistic, he could take some games off.

My point is this. If this happens, we haven't breached some tragic moral dilemma. We have found out that our players are no different than you and me, and pray for Wiggins or our pick becomes an All-Star so it was worth it.
 
cctrackstar said:
Church ball isn't organized.

Um, have you heard of 'layoffs'? Sure these guys have guaranteed contracts I know, but if they stop trying, they become Biedrins and fall to the back of the bench and eventually get traded for cap space to a team who doesn't intend to use them at all. Not good for the career stats or future contracts.
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If you are the top salesman at your office, layoffs don't apply to you. Hayward and Favors aren't worried about layoffs.

It's funny you bring up churchball. I don't play churchball anymore because there are too many unathletic, overweight, never played any basketball but Jr. Jazz guys giving it 100%. It's not worth spraining a wrist or ankle so some yahoo crappy player can flop around and slap my dick every time I go up for a jumpshot.
 
I can see going 90% rather than 100%, sure.

Losing on purpose? I don't see it, at all. jmo
 
green said:
If you are the top salesman at your office, layoffs don't apply to you. Hayward and Favors aren't worried about layoffs.

It's funny you bring up churchball. I don't play churchball anymore because there are too many unathletic, overweight, never played any basketball but Jr. Jazz guys giving it 100%. It's not worth spraining a wrist or ankle so some yahoo crappy player can flop around and slap my dick every time I go up for a jumpshot.
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Slap my dick lol.
Damned effective defense
 
PKM said:
I can see going 90% rather than 100%, sure.

Losing on purpose? I don't see it, at all. jmo
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I don't think they ever lose on purpose. Not Burke or Hayward. I hope Kanter fits in to there as well. I'm just saying come March, if they suck, I can see players missing games. The ol' strained abucter muscle. The hammy pull. Ankle tweaks. Not losing on purpose, but not there fighting for a win either.
 
-Only coaches or owners can tank

-Why would players "tank" so better guys can get drafted to take their roster spots?

-When you are losing a lot it sometimes looks like tanking cause players stop playing team basketball and just try and get theirs.
 
Beantown said:
-When you are losing a lot it sometimes looks like tanking cause players stop playing team basketball and just try and get theirs.
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I hadn't thought about this. This could become a real issue. Hayward, Favors, Kanter are all safe. Burke is as well, but I could see him not feeling that way. How bad does this team get is Burks, Lucas, Jefferson all start trying to get "theirs". Those guys are all fighting not only for roster spots, but NBA careers (maybe not Burks). If Corbin loses this team, it could get really ugly really fast.
 
green said:
My question is, why not?
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Because it's their ****ing career? What kind of winner doesn't care about winning? What kind of team values players that quit? How badly do they want another player to steal the spotlight and possibly push their value down?
 
NUMBERICA said:
Because it's their ****ing career? What kind of winner doesn't care about winning? What kind of team values players that quit? How badly do they want another player to steal the spotlight and possibly push their value down?
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I keep repeating this, and will continue to do so, because some of you aren't comprehending. What happens the last 25 games of the season has ZERO bearing on what type of career Hayward/Favors will have.

You ask what kind of team values players that quit? How can the Jazz judge Hayward/Favors on that this year, when they are the ones that quit first and put them in that situation?

No one is stealing Favors' and Hayward's spotlight and pushing their value down. Come March, people's minds will have already been made up.
 
Also, remember that outside of about 5 or 6 guys everybody else could be playing their last year in the NBA. I suspect that was not an accident and I don't see much complacency in those people. four or five of the roster guys will be gone regardless, and I would assume that these players will want to be just above that line. The Jazz are deep (as far as warm bodies are concerned, not skill level) at every position. There is absolutely no reason why quitters can't be benched or even Raja Belled should it come to that. There are some advantages to not having playoff expectations initially like we had last year where we had to play the safe hand. Unless Favors or Hayward go crazy and become a cancer, everyone else can be put in their place. I see little to evidence that they will become cancers.
 
green said:
I keep repeating this, and will continue to do so, because some of you aren't comprehending. What happens the last 25 games of the season has ZERO bearing on what type of career Hayward/Favors will have.

You ask what kind of team values players that quit? How can the Jazz judge Hayward/Favors on that this year, when they are the ones that quit first and put them in that situation?

No one is stealing Favors' and Hayward's spotlight and pushing their value down. Come March, people's minds will have already been made up.
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We are comprehending and tell you that you are wrong. It will havea difference in the way they are perceived. When push comes to shove and things are not going their way they will quit. That is what they learned and what was taught them.


As Jazz fans we should be demanding that the players give every last ounce of effort they have. You may want to root for quitters but I most certainly do not. And let us be honest here. That is what we are talking abou there. Quitting.
 
green said:
I keep repeating this, and will continue to do so, because some of you aren't comprehending.
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We are the ones living in reality, and you are sitting there with your thumb up your *** thinking that competitiveness and personal pride works on a switch, acting as though there isn't a salary cap with a punitive luxury tax, a finite number of possessions and minutes, then telling others that they aren't comprehending. Rich.

If all of this is above your head, maybe you should stop.
 
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