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Will our bigs be our offensive strength?

Carbon13

Carbon13

Well-Known Member
On the Lowe Post today, Zach Lowe said his biggest concern with the NBA is that it becomes too homogeneous. Everyone is now playing spread small ball offense and defense the Thibodeau way. But what I found interesting is he then went on to say the solution to small ball offenses is playing a team that can post everyone up. You will basically be able to abuse smaller shooters in the post. It made me think maybe the Jazz have a pretty unique team. One that could cause some havoc in certain post season situations. Anyone agree with this?
 
Gobert can't post up anybody and Favors is below average post up player in the league. I don't see it...
 
spycam1 said:
And Hayward has no post game to speak of (it would be awesome if he changed that for next season).
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That's something I expected to see from him with his improved strength and weight this season. I wonder if he's gonna work on it this summer. I think he actually has nice footwork in offense otherwise and he's skillful enough to be effective with it. His pull away jumper off the dribble has been consistent this year, too. The signs are there... lets see if he and the coaching staff think that's something that would benefit his game more than strengthening other areas of his game.
 
Here, again, is the frustrating thing about Favors. We have seen flashes, we have seen him dominate, both in the low post and with a decent mid-range game. I think he has it in him, and there is no reason he cannot improve his post game...

...Favors and Jazz coaching staff...if you are reading this...MAKE FAVORS WORK ON HIS POST GAME...HE DOES NOT, AND I MEAN NOT NEED TO ADD A STUPID SUPER-OVER-HYPED (for a big man) 3 POINT SHOT...GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEADS RIGHT NOW!!!!

...and I think that is what he will try to do this off-season, at least it is if he and the Jazz coaching staff are smart. He needs to get a dirty streak and come in every single game looking to dominate. I think, and have always said, it is an attitude thing. Give Gobert 1/2 of Favor's offensive abilities and his fire and grit will get him 20+ pts per game. In fact if Gobert can develop a post game and a moderately decent mid-range jumper then we have the next MVP on our hands folks.

Favors can be that too, and more, if he wants it.

There is zero reason Favors cannot average well in the 20-range for pts, well over 10 boards, and over a block per game, with a smattering of assists thrown in, so this line is entirely possible from him for a season:

23 pts
11.5 boards
3.4 assists
1.6 blocks
1 steal
55% FG
75% FT

And with a line like that, which is not that big a stretch, we have an all-star player, and a true accolades threat every single season (1st team NBA, MVP, what have you).

But he needs to want to take it from everyone else. He needs to stop being quiet about it and slap people around. He needs to take a page from Malone's playbook (and really every great player's play book....they all fit that mold in one way or another) and get some nasty and look to take over. He, and the team and coaching staff and other players and mascot and freaking Dorkus and Dingus (boler and harp of course) need to all be surprised when Favors doesn't dominate like an animal in heat that has been starving for a month going at it while ripping off haunches of bloody meat.

He, and the team, et al, need to decide that Favors is the horse they are hitching their cart to, as they did with Malone, and EXPECT it from him. He cannot be satisfied any longer with taking what the defense gives him and looking to Hayward and others for his cues and being content to get 16 and 7 far too often. He needs to overcome those sleepy eyes and sport SLEEPY EYES OF RAGE!!!

(cuz let's face it, he is stuck with those sleepy eyes)
 
I don't think you need to have your back to the basket to realize these advantages. If you catch the ball near the basket and face-up (like Favors prefers to do), you can still use your size to your advantage. I expect our bigs to get better at exploiting the matchup problems they create... however that fits into their skills or comforts.

Hayward would benefit from a legit post game, though. If the defense switches and he gets a smaller guard, we need to be able to exploit that way more effectively than we have.

Dante is lightyears away from a post game or I'd say the same thing. Hood?
 
Carbon13 said:
On the Lowe Post today, Zach Lowe said his biggest concern with the NBA is that it becomes too homogeneous. Everyone is now playing spread small ball offense and defense the Thibodeau way. But what I found interesting is he then went on to say the solution to small ball offenses is playing a team that can post everyone up. You will basically be able to abuse smaller shooters in the post. It made me think maybe the Jazz have a pretty unique team. One that could cause some havoc in certain post season situations. Anyone agree with this?
Click to expand...

Uhh, I listened to the podcast and he brought that up as a concern others bring up, but not something he is actually concerened with. Brought examples of how each team actually plays very differnetly and how teams are starting to use different defensive schemes.

From what I got out of it, he basically dismissed the concern.
 
Hayward is the best candidate. He already has a sweet turnaround he just doesn't get it by posting up... He usually drives in and spins or bumps off the defender and then fades away. If we play him with another big wing I could see him having an advantage.

Now do I want to build my offense around that perceived unique advantage... nope. I don't think the post game is dead, but it is so much easier to double down on a post up player than a wing guy. The player would have to be a great passer and have good shooters around him... including potentially another big that can shoot.

I think it is better for us to punish smaller teams on the offensive glass. Don't see either of our bigs becoming dominant in the post although Favs has gotten much better.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Here, again, is the frustrating thing about Favors. We have seen flashes, we have seen him dominate, both in the low post and with a decent mid-range game. I think he has it in him, and there is no reason he cannot improve his post game...

...Favors and Jazz coaching staff...if you are reading this...MAKE FAVORS WORK ON HIS POST GAME...HE DOES NOT, AND I MEAN NOT NEED TO ADD A STUPID SUPER-OVER-HYPED (for a big man) 3 POINT SHOT...GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEADS RIGHT NOW!!!!

...and I think that is what he will try to do this off-season, at least it is if he and the Jazz coaching staff are smart. He needs to get a dirty streak and come in every single game looking to dominate. I think, and have always said, it is an attitude thing. Give Gobert 1/2 of Favor's offensive abilities and his fire and grit will get him 20+ pts per game. In fact if Gobert can develop a post game and a moderately decent mid-range jumper then we have the next MVP on our hands folks.

Favors can be that too, and more, if he wants it.

There is zero reason Favors cannot average well in the 20-range for pts, well over 10 boards, and over a block per game, with a smattering of assists thrown in, so this line is entirely possible from him for a season:

23 pts
11.5 boards
3.4 assists
1.6 blocks
1 steal
55% FG
75% FT

And with a line like that, which is not that big a stretch, we have an all-star player, and a true accolades threat every single season (1st team NBA, MVP, what have you).

But he needs to want to take it from everyone else. He needs to stop being quiet about it and slap people around. He needs to take a page from Malone's playbook (and really every great player's play book....they all fit that mold in one way or another) and get some nasty and look to take over. He, and the team and coaching staff and other players and mascot and freaking Dorkus and Dingus (boler and harp of course) need to all be surprised when Favors doesn't dominate like an animal in heat that has been starving for a month going at it while ripping off haunches of bloody meat.

He, and the team, et al, need to decide that Favors is the horse they are hitching their cart to, as they did with Malone, and EXPECT it from him. He cannot be satisfied any longer with taking what the defense gives him and looking to Hayward and others for his cues and being content to get 16 and 7 far too often. He needs to overcome those sleepy eyes and sport SLEEPY EYES OF RAGE!!!

(cuz let's face it, he is stuck with those sleepy eyes)
Click to expand...

Yeah, trying to add spacing with our 4 man is dumb when we have Gobert, who can't score outside of 5 feet.....

*sarcasm*

No reason not to try to continue to extend his range when he has shown ability to extend his range.

Favors offensive efficiency numbers got worse playing with Gobert. He has to continue to extend his range to add space.
 
Also the biggest problem with posting up in modern NBA is that most of the really good scoring post-up bigs are largely low IQ players when it comes to team basketball. Also the teams with the dominant post-up players aren't even well built around those players (Charlotte has some of the worst shooting wings in the NBA despite having Al Jefferson).
 
Sucks that we don't have the rights to a tall European big-man with elite skills in the post *fumes*
 
dalamon said:
Sucks that we don't have the rights to a tall European big-man with elite skills in the post *fumes*
Click to expand...

Elite skills?

His only elite skill was passing. Nothing else was a guarantee to translate to the NBA game other than passing.
 
Cy said:
Elite skills?

His only elite skill was passing. Nothing else was a guarantee to translate to the NBA game other than passing.
Click to expand...

he's a crafty scorer. While those skills aren't "guaranteed" to translate, the probability is highly in favor of them doing so. Don't hate, braugh.
 
Cy said:
Uhh, I listened to the podcast and he brought that up as a concern others bring up, but not something he is actually concerened with. Brought examples of how each team actually plays very differnetly and how teams are starting to use different defensive schemes.

From what I got out of it, he basically dismissed the concern.
Click to expand...

All true. Just posted what i did for the sake of brevity. Still, maybe having a non-stretch 4 starting wont be as big an issue as originally thought!
 
Carbon13 said:
On the Lowe Post today, Zach Lowe said his biggest concern with the NBA is that it becomes too homogeneous. Everyone is now playing spread small ball offense and defense the Thibodeau way. But what I found interesting is he then went on to say the solution to small ball offenses is playing a team that can post everyone up. You will basically be able to abuse smaller shooters in the post. It made me think maybe the Jazz have a pretty unique team. One that could cause some havoc in certain post season situations. Anyone agree with this?
Click to expand...

No. Maybe a year ago this could be said. This is what I liked about Kanter in theory. I'm not generally a fan of ogre ball but if the proper infrastructure is built around it, it is still wildly effective at creating shot opportunities. But Kanter was a selfish dumb-*** that wouldn't pass, single-handedly destroyed the defense, and the Jazz didn't have the floor-spacing to make it work anyway.

Anyway, no. The thing that makes the Jazz unique is that you can't run a pick and roll against them because they have the best defensive player in the league and a top-10 defensive player in the league both guarding the paint and both being able to cover a ballhandler when needed. Favors has a rudimentary post-up game that he could use to punish a mismatch, and Gobert needs the same. Because right now, teams have more reasons to go small against the Jazz than they have reasons to not. The only way Gobert wins against a small-ball big is rebounding. He needs to be able to keep teams honest.
 
In Quin's offense I think post-ups are far less important. You either get an open look around the basket or the ball is thrown out for a 3. I think it's far more important for Rudy to develop a jumper from 10-15 ft and for Derrick to be more consistent on his mid-range game.
 
Cy said:
Yeah, trying to add spacing with our 4 man is dumb when we have Gobert, who can't score outside of 5 feet.....

*sarcasm*

No reason not to try to continue to extend his range when he has shown ability to extend his range.

Favors offensive efficiency numbers got worse playing with Gobert. He has to continue to extend his range to add space.
Click to expand...

All yall know that we dont need a 3 point shooting big man, that is a wing job to be open for the kick. Y'all also know that Favors needs to solidify a go-to offensive set, which yal realize is better served in the post. Y'all should know all this anyway. Yall.
 
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