Gamethread: Jazz v Lakers. 7pm MST.

[fishonjazz]

He was drafted on what he could be, not on what he is right now. Also... basketball is played on both ends of the floor, so he's not the worst rookie in the history of the NBA, he's not even the worst rookie this year. PER is a stat that puts a lot of emphasis on offensive performance and struggles to adequately evaluate defensive performance.

Here's some advanced stats of the rookies this year: click here

Dante is 42 out of 74 rookies this season in win shares. Zach Lavine is dead last.
In BPM he's 36 out of 74. In VORP he's towards the end.

In RPM(click here), he's in the middle of the pack at 51st out of 104 all SGs in the league(I don't know why he's listed as a SG). If you list him as a PG he'd still be 52nd out of 92 PGs in the league.
In WAR, he's 46th out of 104 SGs, or 52and out of 92 PGs.

What to me is the most interesting stat is that he's the only player in our regular rotation(edit: actually along with Millsap) who's on the plus side(on +/-) when on the court:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2015/on-off/

Even Hayward is on the negative. He also has a +6.5 on/off balance. This might be explained by Quin putting him in situations to succeed and not letting him stay in the game too long when things get ugly, it also might have something to do with matching him with Hayward and Gobert a lot, but still the sample is large enough to take it seriously(about 41% of Dante's minutes are without Hayward and about 40% of his minutes are without Gobert).

Good post

I will say that darko was drafted on what he could become, so was kwame, olawakandi and basically every high draft pick under 20 years old fire the most part.

I liked the stats you posted though and that is very compelling to make me change my stance.

Also I do really like his defense.

His lack of free throws attempts is a negative thing though right? Or is that actually positive too and it just shows that he is patient?

 

[Jamezz]

People get waaaayyyyy to into their stats on this board. I guess thats what you do when you are an internet sports fan, look for stats to help your argument. Or read some random article that quotes some stat and go overboard about what it says.

Ironically enough, some of these posters who try to backup their arguments with stats also whine about Locke doing the same thing. Stats can be manipulated to work in your favor, there are so many other variables like if you're playing against the 1st or 2nd units, who are you playing along with, chemistry etc...

 

[fishonjazz]

People get waaaayyyyy to into their stats on this board. I guess thats what you do when you are an internet sports fan, look for stats to help your argument. Or read some random article that quotes some stat and go overboard about what it says.

Are you trying to say that I don't watch the games? Lol if that's what you are saying.

I don't miss jazz games..... I don't miss summer league games, pre season games, I go to every scrimmage every year... I watch every jazz related thing possible bro.
Don't question my fandom. You go to far

 

[Ron Mexico]

Are you trying to say that I don't watch the games? Lol if that's what you are saying.

I don't miss jazz games..... I don't miss summer league games, pre season games, I go to every scrimmage every year... I watch every jazz related thing possible bro.
Don't question my fandom. You go to far

I didnt quote you are say anything about not watching games. Just saying this board in general puts a lot of their stock in what some random stat says.

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm not sure if you're being dense on purpose, or if it's just natural. The excuses DO matter, because they all point to the fact that he needs time. So basically, quit being impatient bitches and just deal with it.

Ya he needs time. I never argue that.
Hayward needed time, Burks needed time (still does imo) favors needed time, rudy was considered to need LOTS of time when he was drafted and was thought to be a project who was super raw.
Are you really dense enough to think that I'm arguing that exum DOESN'T need more time.
Of course he does.
We agree on that 100%

 

[Ron Mexico]

Hawks should have dumped Dennis in a dumpster fire and called him a bust last season too right? That 5.8 per for a rookie = bust.

 

[fishonjazz]

I didnt quote you are say anything about not watching games. Just saying this board in general puts a lot of their stock in what some random stat says.

Oh I agree.
But even watching the games it seems like he doesn't belong in the nba at all yet.
Less than the other guys his age.
I guess for now we just chalk it up to his Australian high school basketball background and just assume that he will turn into a star player because that is just what happens

 

[JAZZGASM]

I have seen Exum steadily improve this year. He has great speed, length and vision/passing. i have full confidence he will become a very good player.

 

[MT Steve]

Remember when everybody was ready to write off 21 year old Gordon Hayward his rookie season?

 

[fishonjazz]

Hawks should have dumped Dennis in a dumpster fire and called him a bust last season too right? That 5.8 per for a rookie = bust.

Has someone declared exum a bust and said to dump him?

 

[fishonjazz]

Remember when everybody was ready to write off 21 year old Gordon Hayward his rookie season?

No
I do remember people talking about his poor play while he was playing poorly though.
Strange indeed

 

[stitches]

Good post

I will say that darko was drafted on what he could become, so was kwame, olawakandi and basically every high draft pick under 20 years old fire the most part.

I liked the stats you posted though and that is very compelling to make me change my stance.

Also I do really like his defense.

His lack of free throws attempts is a negative thing though right? Or is that actually positive too and it just shows that he is patient?

A lot of his offensive game is on the negative. Lack of FTs is very worrying, but could possibly be explained by the jump of level and physicality of competition from what he has previously faced. I seriously don't know of any rookie with higher jump in level of competition in the history of the NBA. There simply has never been a foreign player to jump from foreign high school to the NBA. They either play professionally in their foreign league first, or play in college in the US. I don't think there is anyone we can compare him to, so we cannot really make an adequate assessment of how normal this lack of FTAs is in his first year, especially when he's been getting to the FT line like a beast in the previous competition he's faced. It is extremely weird situation and quite honestly I've given up trying to explain it... I've just decided to wait for next couple of years and see how this trend develops.

What is positive in offense is that he seems to see the floor very very well probably thanks to his height too, and he has the ability to make the right passes. What I absolutely love is his swing passes to the perimeter when he enters the paint. Those in a lot of cases create wide open 3p looks for spot up shooters...

 

[Ron Mexico]

Has someone declared exum a bust and said to dump him?

Some of you are worried and think that might be the case. Not saying thats what you would do..

And yes I have seen some on here claim we should trade him now while we can.

 

[fishonjazz]

Some of you are worried and think that might be the case. Not saying thats what you would do..

And yes I have seen some on here claim we should trade him now while we can.

I think it's dumb to give up on rookies period.
I could understand it a little more with a player like exum because we have seen so little of him before the nba.
Giving up on a rookie like Hayward (as someone suggested) is really dumb imo cause we already saw him succeed against good college players on the highest stage.


Fwiw I think most of us really agree more than it appears.

I think exum sucks right now on offense and is ok on defense.
He has good size, speed, and vision but is doing very little with it right now.

He will need to improve alot to be a good nba player and need to improve by leaps and bounds to be a star.

He might do that, or he might not. Know one knows but I think we all hope he becomes great

 

[gregbroncs]

It would have been nice if the Jazz had decided to show up. I'm not really concerned though. They have the talent when motivated to get up and play with very good teams. But when they should have an easy victory they have a harder time getting up for the game. Most of that is being a really young team.
.
PS WTF did Burke start the 2nd half? He went all hero ball and the rest of the starters never looked comfortable the rest of the game.

 

[Nate505]

Oh I agree.
But even watching the games it seems like he doesn't belong in the nba at all yet.
Less than the other guys his age.
I guess for now we just chalk it up to his Australian high school basketball background and just assume that he will turn into a star player because that is just what happens

I see flashes of elite NBA skill from him. More than I've seen from the guys who screams bust to me at the time ( like Olwakandai or Hasbeet)

 

[Greasy84]

I think Dante is going to be a great player. Not worried at all.

What bothers me is that I wanted Clarkson with that 2nd round pick we gave away.

 

[Spinoza]

Thank you. I totally agree with everything what you have said. I said the same thing some pages ago. Perfect summarized.



Elite athleticisim? Elite defensive ability? Elite passing skills?
Is this a joke?
What does elite mean to you? Elite like who? Do you live in wonderland?

Blowing by opposing guards at will = elite athleticism, stopping opposing guards from getting to the rim and forcing them to get rid of it = elite defense.

I don't know what you're seeing that I'm not. Maybe I'm noticing the bright spots and disregarding the things the cynics are seeing? Could be. All I know is that the only negative feelings I have gotten about Exum have come from what other posters here have said about him, and I have never felt bad actually watching him play. I really think he's doing totally fine for his skill and experience level and am really having a hard time understanding what some people are so down about it. I mean, I've read what they say, but what they say is usually some dumbass comment about PER.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Remember when everybody was ready to write off 21 year old Gordon Hayward his rookie season?

You mean after he was the best 3PT shooter in the league after the all-star break? The guy who finished with 49%/47% shooting? Yep, we all wrote him off at that point.

Sorry, try again for a decent comparison of the pitiful stats Exum is posting.

 

[MT Steve]

You mean after he was the best 3PT shooter in the league after the all-star break? The guy who finished with 49%/47% shooting? Yep, we all wrote him off at that point.

Sorry, try again for a decent comparison of the pitiful stats Exum is posting.

I was obviously not referring to Hayward post all-star break. My (obvious) point is that he was seen as a bust by a significant amount of Jazz fans for a large portion of his rookie season and he was two years older than Exum at the time.