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Yeah ok but there is absolutely no evidential proof in this case though not a single one. Everything is circumstantial. I would find it hard to convict someone based on that alone.

I find it hard not to lock someone up in this case. Someone was murdered.

My problem with Adnan is he didn't testify. When asked who he thinks could have done it, he says I don't know. Really? No idea? Maybe the guy saying you did it. The guy who knew all the details to the case? If Adnan wants to sit in jail and just keep playing dumb, and not putting up a real fight, then let him. He won't testify. He won't say Jay did it. He's just saying derrrrr, I dunno.
 
I find it hard not to lock someone up in this case. Someone was murdered.

My problem with Adnan is he didn't testify. When asked who he thinks could have done it, he says I don't know. Really? No idea? Maybe the guy saying you did it. The guy who knew all the details to the case? If Adnan wants to sit in jail and just keep playing dumb, and not putting up a real fight, then let him. He won't testify. He won't say Jay did it. He's just saying derrrrr, I dunno.
I know what u r saying he should have fought harde but the only thing we
have got tying him to the crime is the motive and a snitch with bias issue.
 
I find it hard not to lock someone up in this case. Someone was murdered.

My problem with Adnan is he didn't testify. When asked who he thinks could have done it, he says I don't know. Really? No idea? Maybe the guy saying you did it. The guy who knew all the details to the case? If Adnan wants to sit in jail and just keep playing dumb, and not putting up a real fight, then let him. He won't testify. He won't say Jay did it. He's just saying derrrrr, I dunno.

Man, we've been over this already. He can't go throwing out alternate theories on a radio show. He is still working on appeals. Just because he doesn't do what you think he should do doesn't mean he's guilty. That's not evidence of anything.
 
Man, we've been over this already. He can't go throwing out alternate theories on a radio show. He is still working on appeals. Just because he doesn't do what you think he should do doesn't mean he's guilty. That's not evidence of anything.

Oh. I thought that could be why he's not accusing Jay. Good point then. It was easier for my argument not to bring that up. Haha.

Anyways...

Do you agree, either Jay or Adnan had to do it?

Here are the possibilities

1. Adnan did it
2. Jay did it.
3. Jay knows someone else who did it, and is covering for that person.

So based off that, we take everything else and see what sticks to who. And everything that has been presented really points Adnan. No alibi, motive, witness, hear say, circumstantial evidence. All of it points to Adnan.

Maybe it's something crazy like Jay's girlfriend killed Hae over something we don't know about, and Jay covered for her.

Nevertheless, one of them did it. Throw both Jay and Adnan in just to be sure.
 
1 witness testimony is enough? I think you need at least 4 non bias witness or strong physical evidence.

There was that one kid who told his friend (a girl) that Adnan showed them the body in the trunk. There's that. It came out after the fact and never made it to trial.
 
Oh. I thought that could be why he's not accusing Jay. Good point then. It was easier for my argument not to bring that up. Haha.

Anyways...

Do you agree, either Jay or Adnan had to do it?

Here are the possibilities

1. Adnan did it
2. Jay did it.
3. Jay knows someone else who did it, and is covering for that person.

So based off that, we take everything else and see what sticks to who. And everything that has been presented really points Adnan. No alibi, motive, witness, hear say, circumstantial evidence. All of it points to Adnan.

Maybe it's something crazy like Jay's girlfriend killed Hae over something we don't know about, and Jay covered for her.

Nevertheless, one of them did it. Throw both Jay and Adnan in just to be sure.

I agree to an extent that either Jay or Adnan did it or that Jay knows who else did it...except, so much of Jay's interrogation was conducted with the tape not rolling so we don't know what he and the detectives may have worked up. Now, I think it's a huge stretch to say the cops fed info to Jay and then he gave it back to the cops as if he was telling them something he didn't know, but these cops eventually became known for misusing the "2-step" interrogation process and nowadays it's not allowed, from the second a witness or suspect begins being questioned they are on camera.
 
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Someone on Reddit posted an alternate theory how Jay could have framed Adnan.

It's an interesting read. Maybe Jay did it. The problem I have with that is what was his motive? Maybe resentment towards kids from that Magnet Program? He does sat he resented the school for putting it in.



Forgive me, this is long. And a throwaway, because if my girlfriend knew how much time I spent on this she'd throw me away.
I wish we could hear the full transcript of Jay's first interview with the police. At that point I believe there's room for the narrative to go either way, and I don't think the "Lucky Jays" (credit /u/catesque) are as crazy as commonly thought around here. I'm going to tell that story with testimony and facts of the case interspersed. Like Jay said, he tells the truth but doesn't tell the truth. Hope its a friendly read.
We begin at the day of the murder. Jay has manually strangled Hae (he states the cause of death himself) in her vehicle. At that time he is in possession of Adnan's vehicle and cell phone. He moves Hae's body to the trunk of her own car. He's panicked and unsure of what to do, so he starts calling people he knows: Jenn, Patrick, Phil, and mistakenly Nisha. All of these calls ping near Woodlawn, and we accept that Hae was murdered near Woodlawn because of the narrow window of time between her being seen by Inez (or talking with Summer) and having to pick up her cousin.
One hour after Hae has been killed Jay has failed to do anything but call his friends from near the murder scene: https://i.imgur.com/bJOjwVK.png. He leads brief conversations during the 3:00pm hour, none lasting longer than 82 seconds. At 4:12pm, after calling Jenn near Woodlawn for a second time, he drives toward Patapsco state park. He's considering burying Hae there (he describes to officers the drive and the scenery at dusk), but decides against it (in his account to police he assigns this decision to Adnan). He receives two phone calls on the cross-town trip to the Cliffs (this is around the time Jenn would have said he was "acting weird earlier in the day") that ping a cell tower near the 70/695 interchange. The drive from Woodlawn to Patapsco takes you down 695: https://goo.gl/maps/mk2WT. The incoming 4:27pm call lasts for almost 3 minutes. At this time Jay and Jenn are having a meaningful conversation about what Jay is wrapped up in. Not necessarily that Hae is dead, but Jenn is able to infer that something is wrong.
It is now 4:30pm. Jay knows from experience that Adnan will be ready around 5:00pm. He doesn't have time to bury the body in Patapsco and pick up Adnan.
So he drives back up 695 to Adnan's car, leaves Hae in hers (he varies in saying the car was at Best Buy, at the mall where the "trunk pop" happened, and at the I-70 park n ride - I'm going with the Security Square mall for the reason below), and picks up Adnan from track practice in Adnan's car. The call placed to Adnan's voicemail at 5:15pm is Adnan checking his voicemail. He has his phone back.
They drive around (as per Adnan and Jay), smoking weed - Jay's working on his alibi, Adnan going through the motions of the day. They buy weed and go to Cathy's together. They arrive by 6:00pm, during Judge Judy. At Cathy's Adnan receives 3 phone calls:
6:07pm/6:09pm: Hae's brother - asking where Hae is/Aisha calling to tell Adnan the police will be contacting him (being of the same length and similar content the first two phone calls are basically interchangeable)
6:24pm: Detective Adcock.
That's 3 iterations in 30 minutes of the circumstances surrounding Hae's disappearance. Adnan and Jay leave Cathy's apartment to speak in Adnan's car. They discuss at length the contents of Adnan's conversations. Jay is alarmed. It's a race between him and BPD to Hae's car.
Now I'll depart from the narrative for a moment. Remember that at trial Jay testifies that Adnan dropped him off at his house after Cathy's. Jenn testifies that Jay told her the night of January 13th that Adnan dropped him off at "the mall." SK emphasizes this discrepancy. I think there's a connection between Jay's 1/13 story to Jenn - that Adnan dropped him off at the mall - and his statement to police - that Hae's car and body were at some point in the parking lot of a mall. Every "location" of Hae's body - whether it be the trunk pop(s), the park n ride, Best Buy, Edgemont street - was fabricated in late February to fit the police narrative. The only true location is the one he reveals to Jenn that night: the mall. Having to move faster than BPD can look, he asks Adnan to unwittingly bring him to the location of Hae's car and body at Security Square mall.
At around 7:00pm - 30 minutes after Adnan hangs up with Det. Adcock - Adnan and Jay arrive back at the mall. That leaves 30 minutes to have a conversation with Jay and drive the 5.5 miles to Security Square: https://goo.gl/maps/1AIsQ. Knowing he'll need help, Jay convinces Adnan to lend him his phone again ("I never should have let someone hold my car. I never should have let someone hold my phone"). They agree to meet at the mosque at 9:00pm - 1 hour after the fast breaks. Adnan calls Yasser to tell him he'll be on his way to the mosque and gives the phone to Jay, who immediately pages Jenn (calls placed at 6:59pm and 7:00pm, respectively). Both calls ping tower L651, well within range of the parking lot. Adnan leaves, and once he's out of sight Jay gets in Hae's car. He has no time to plot and cannot risk being seen on the road. So he drives to the notorious and cadaverous Leakin park, only 4 miles away: https://maps.google.com/maps?output=classic&dg=brw, in Hae's car, with Adnan's phone.
Google's drive time from the mall to Leakin park is 10 minutes. At 7:09 and 7:16, the "damning" Leakin park calls ring Adnan's phone. 10 minutes after Jay pages Jenn. The exact time it takes to drive from the mall to Leakin Park.
At 7:09pm Jay tells Jenn he can't talk. He's looking for a tomb. It is cold and dark and Hae's body is turning blue (remember Jay describing her lips). He drags Hae behind a log just far enough from the road, makes a bare effort to cover her body, and rushes back to the Nissan.
A perturbed Jenn calls him again at 7:16. Now the body is gone; he can talk. From Leakin park he arranges a location to be picked up by Jenn - Edmondson. A dense and criminal neighborhood that abuts Leakin Park. He hangs up and drives Hae's vehicle to its last known location - Edmondson. He spends some time deciding where and how to leave the car, decontaminating it to the best of his ability, and seeing that no one followed him. Now the car is gone. He pages Jenn from Adnan's phone, at 8:04 and 8:05. The calls ping tower L653 from the East side - Edmondson. He's ready.
Presuming Jenn was at home, she picks Jay up 7-10 minutes later at around 8:15pm. She confronts him about his behavior. He tells Jenn that Adnan killed Hae. He doesn't have time to say how, but he's involved and they need a shovel ("or was it shovels?" asks Jenn). So she drives him from Edmondson to his house, and back to Leakin Park. Its colder, darker, and he's unable to make meaningful progress. He spends "20 or 25 minutes" (his statement to police with respect to the burial time) before giving up. A cold front is coming in. Jenn goes with him to dispose of the evidence (a scene from which Adnan is suspiciously absent, if he was involved in Hae's murder), and brings Jay to Adnan's mosque to return the phone at 9:00pm. Adnan is none the wiser, thanks Jay for his promptness, and spends the next 15 minutes on the phone with Nisha and Krista, ************, as teenagers do.
Over the next few weeks the family, the press, and the police are all searching for Hae. Jenn does not understand why Jay can't tell BPD what happened. Jay says they know too much and waited too long, were at the burial site, and so on, and to never say a word or she'll catch the charge. Jenn holds up all the way to her first interrogation, when she's told she may be a suspect ("everyone's a suspect, and no one's a suspect"). This greatly distresses Jenn and she calls Jay, who asks for the details of her interaction with the police.
Jenn says the police questioned her about a number of phone calls placed from Adnan's cell phone to her home and pager on January 13th, the day of Hae's disappearance. Now I'd like to break off again, and really look at Jay's point of view after Jenn conveys this information to him.
Anyone who watches television can make their first inference about the direction of the case - they're looking at the boyfriend. And Jay remembers from his conversation with Adnan outside Cathy's on 1/13 that Hae failed to pick her cousin up by 3:15; that's how everyone knew she was missing. And Jay thinks, seeing Jenn in this frenzy, she's going to retell Jay's story about Adnan killing Hae soon. So the cops are going to have him in Adnan's car, making calls to people only he knows, at the time the police told Adnan that Hae disappeared. And if Jenn goes so far as to say that she brought him back to the burial site alone, Adnan will have an out, and Jay's completely ****ed.
So Jay instructs Jenn to tell the police enough not to get her in trouble, and send the cops his way (as per Jenn). In other words - leave out the part that leaves Adnan out of the murder. Jenn's lawyer agrees, advising Jenn not to incriminate herself, and they give Jenn's statement to the police, who have wanted Adnan ever since the anonymous phone call.
Finally Ritz and McGillivary (sp) meet Jay, the reticent accomplice. Jay says Adnan did it. The police are suspicious. Jay says Adnan said he was going to do it. The police fall in love with Jay, the unassailable witness. Murder 1, pointed directly at their favorite suspect. From there Jay and the police cooperatively cut new holes in old puzzle pieces, making them fit together.
Later Jenn will lie to provide an alibi for Jay around the suspected time of death which we know to be ******** because Adnan's phone calls Jenn's home during the time Jay is supposedly there. He's able to manipulate her into doing this 2 ways. First by telling her that she can still go to jail, and second by convincing her its OK because the "right" guy is going away.
TL;DR Jay knows from Adnan's conversations at Cathy's on 1/13/99 that Hae was suspected to have disappeared by 3:15pm. He knows Jenn will go to the cops with her story about the evidence disposal and Adnan's "involvement" because she tells him as much after her first meeting with the police. Jay sees that the cops, via Jenn, will be able to put him with Hae's killer around the time of Hae's death because he's the only one that knows and would call Jenn. He can't take himself out of the picture at that point. So he brings Adnan into it.
 
https://www.slate.com/blogs/browbea...he_serial_subject_gets_a_chance_to_prove.html

141121_CBOX_SerialAdnan.jpg.CROP.promo-mediumlarge.jpg


Adnan Syed, subject of hit podcast Serial, will get a chance to appeal his case. Syed, now 33, was convicted in 2000 for the murder of ex-girlfriend Hae Min Lee, and has since been serving a life sentence in a Western Maryland state prison.
On Friday, the Maryland Court of Special Appeals granted Syed the right to an appeal on the grounds of ineffective counsel. In their application for leave to appeal, Syed’s legal team argued that Syed’s original lawyer, Cristina Gutierrez, failed to both seek a plea deal and pursue key witness Asia McClain, who claims to have been with Syed in a local library at the time of Lee’s death. McClain also filed a new affidavitearlier this year stating that trial prosecutor Kevin Urick persuaded her not to take part in Syed’s trial.
 
So I just listened to this series!

I have to say, I really think Adnad did it, but I don't think they had enough evidence to convict him either.

One thing is for sure, and that is that Jay was a part of it! Except Jay has no motive...so one can reasonably assume Adnad was part of it as well. He does have the motive.

Adnad definitely comes out well on the podcast IMO, Sarah is definitely taken with him. He's smart, articulate, charming. He also seems kind of detached from reality, and he seems like a liar to me! Honestly, one of the bigger things to me is that he continues to not remember what happened that day. Like Don (the boyfriend) said, he knew once the cops called him that Hae was missing that he had to get his alibi and story straight, because he would be a prime suspect. That's common sense! So I'm supposed to believe that this smart, educated, 17 year old from Baltimore who has committed crimes before isn't smart enough to know that he's going to be a suspect?! I'm sorry, but that seems unreasonable to me.

This other part is more speculative, but how many innocent, naive (like he wants us to think he is), non-troublemaking teenagers have no problem adjusting to life in a maximum security prison? He admitted it wasn't difficult, that he adapted right away! This isn't a prison full of white collar criminals! And he said that he was thriving there, everybody liked and respected him, he never had any problems. So either he is lying (delusional) or he's a whole lot better around criminals than most innocent teenagers are.

I think it's likely that Jay was more involved than he was, but I don't think he did the killing. Just has no reason to do so. Adnad really has the only motive that we know of, and conveniently, he has never been able to remember the day that his ex-girlfriend and good friend went missing. That's suspicious as hell!
 
He's also surrounded by a community that doesn't want to say anything bad about him because of the embarrassment and shame. Lots of people admitted to that. Don't think that doesn't play a role either!
 
So I just listened to this series!

I have to say, I really think Adnad did it, but I don't think they had enough evidence to convict him either.

One thing is for sure, and that is that Jay was a part of it! Except Jay has no motive...so one can reasonably assume Adnad was part of it as well. He does have the motive.

Adnad definitely comes out well on the podcast IMO, Sarah is definitely taken with him. He's smart, articulate, charming. He also seems kind of detached from reality, and he seems like a liar to me! Honestly, one of the bigger things to me is that he continues to not remember what happened that day. Like Don (the boyfriend) said, he knew once the cops called him that Hae was missing that he had to get his alibi and story straight, because he would be a prime suspect. That's common sense! So I'm supposed to believe that this smart, educated, 17 year old from Baltimore who has committed crimes before isn't smart enough to know that he's going to be a suspect?! I'm sorry, but that seems unreasonable to me.

This other part is more speculative, but how many innocent, naive (like he wants us to think he is), non-troublemaking teenagers have no problem adjusting to life in a maximum security prison? He admitted it wasn't difficult, that he adapted right away! This isn't a prison full of white collar criminals! And he said that he was thriving there, everybody liked and respected him, he never had any problems. So either he is lying (delusional) or he's a whole lot better around criminals than most innocent teenagers are.

I think it's likely that Jay was more involved than he was, but I don't think he did the killing. Just has no reason to do so. Adnad really has the only motive that we know of, and conveniently, he has never been able to remember the day that his ex-girlfriend and good friend went missing. That's suspicious as hell!

I think that is the opinion most of us have. I bet even Sarah has that opinion if she had truth serum.
 
So I just listened to this series!

I have to say, I really think Adnad did it, but I don't think they had enough evidence to convict him either.

Do you think Adnad is a socio-path?

He's also surrounded by a community that doesn't want to say anything bad about him because of the embarrassment and shame. Lots of people admitted to that. Don't think that doesn't play a role either!

Who are you talking about when you reference the "community?"
 
Do you think Adnad is a socio-path?



Who are you talking about when you reference the "community?"

Sociopath is a broad term, and I'm not a doctor nor am I qualified to make such a statement. The community he's surrounded by is pretty obvious if you listen to the series.
 
Sociopath is a broad term, and I'm not a doctor nor am I qualified to make such a statement. The community he's surrounded by is pretty obvious if you listen to the series.

Well, you're definitely making a statement in saying you think he's guilty, especially after the way he comes off to Ms. Koenig. He does NOT "sound" like a guilty man to me and if he is, he as himself convinced that so utterly that I would think there would be room for some sort of mental condition.

I listened to the podcast originally as it aired so some of it I have forgotten that's why I am asking you to be more specific in the community you were referencing.
 
Well, you're definitely making a statement in saying you think he's guilty, especially after the way he comes off to Ms. Koenig. He does NOT "sound" like a guilty man to me and if he is, he as himself convinced that so utterly that I would think there would be room for some sort of mental condition.

I listened to the podcast originally as it aired so some of it I have forgotten that's why I am asking you to be more specific in the community you were referencing.

He was part of a Pakistani Muslim community in a Baltimore suburb.
 
He was part of a Pakistani Muslim community in a Baltimore suburb.

Ok, thanks, GF. That's who I thought he was referencing.

Anyway, I never got that feeling that "the community" felt some collective shame over what happened.
 
Ok, thanks, GF. That's who I thought he was referencing.

Anyway, I never got that feeling that "the community" felt some collective shame over what happened.

There were people from that community that specifically said they were afraid to say anything negative about Adnad because of the backlash that would happen.
 
Can't believe we'll have to wait another year for the next series... another station should replicate this and make it a weekly thing. You'd probably only need 3-4 cases in a given calendar year.
 
Can't believe we'll have to wait another year for the next series... another station should replicate this and make it a weekly thing. You'd probably only need 3-4 cases in a given calendar year.



This American Life and Serial might seem easy to replicate but the people behind those shows are masters of narrative storytelling. There are many podcasts SERIAL-ish. And many public radio shows clearly trying to be TAL. They aren't. They simply aren't on that level.
 
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