society should let parents parent. and gtfo

[DutchJazzer]

I like how your disdain for America has made you screw up the quote system.

what do you mean?

is there 100% scientific proof that letting a kid walk 1 mile from school to home is life threatening dangerous?
cus there is 1.000% proof that mall nutrition over couple of months is definitely bad and life threatening?

so how can you compare these 2.

 

[Harambe]

what do you mean?

is there 100% scientific proof that letting a kid walk 1 mile from school to home is life threatening dangerous?
cus there is 1.000% proof that mall nutrition over couple of months is definitely bad and life threatening?

so how can you compare these 2.

#quickcleanup #no1notices #picoritdidnthappen #1.000%isstill1%

The tag line on this thread reads society should let parents parent. Well, if society let this parent parent, this child would be dead. There's a large difference between the two situations, and I see that. But that's not what the topic, or the OP reads at all, now is it?

 

[DutchJazzer]

#quickcleanup #no1notices #picoritdidnthappen #1.000%isstill1%

The tag line on this thread reads society should let parents parent. Well, if society let this parent parent, this child would be dead. There's a large difference between the two situations, and I see that. But that's not what the topic, or the OP reads at all, now is it?

ok

sorry my thread title is inadequate then

 

[Harambe]

ok

sorry my thread title is inadequate then

nightmare's mom thought you were inadequate too.

 

[Gameface]

nightmare's mom thought you were inadequate too.

And she's pretty forgiving.

 

[LogGrad98]

The other side of society should let parents parent...

https://helenair.com/news/local/mother-of-malnourished-baby-arrested-on-endangerment-charge/article_fb6c3384-7ee8-57f8-b2a2-59e7480b39a5.html



Just sayin.

Aside from you baiting and trolling dutch what exactly are you saying?

I agree with Dutch that the two cases are night and day apart from each other and actually highlight the problems of CPS in general. But in this case even do we need a separate agency for this or is it more a criminal case? I suppose there needs to be an organization to take care of the kids in these circumstances, but the repercussions to the family should be a matter of law, with all the inherent rights and responsibilities, not unfettered policy.

 

[gregbroncs]

The other side of society should let parents parent...

https://helenair.com/news/local/mother-of-malnourished-baby-arrested-on-endangerment-charge/article_fb6c3384-7ee8-57f8-b2a2-59e7480b39a5.html



Just sayin.

Nobody said there were not examples of CPS being needed. Just that they need to be held accountable for decisions that they make. The example Loggrad gave the 16 year old should be in prison and the CPS agent that took the kid should be terminated and prosecuted, the foster parents in the home where the kid was raped should also be charged and stripped of foster care responsibility. The CPS have no accountability and that leads to more problems than it solves. Nobody should be free from accountability and that includes any and all divisions of the government. CPS should be there to help families not destroy them with no effort to do the right thing. Which in a lot of cases is normal procedure for that agency. Parents are treated as guilty without a trial. That is not how it should be handled. In both cases shown here it should be the governments responsibility to prove just cause BEFORE taking the kids. In your case they should learn to do it quickly to help save the life of that kid.
.
Also if the CPS takes a kid out of a home the extended family should have a chance to watch the kid while the government tries to prove their case.

 

[Harambe]

Aside from you baiting and trolling dutch what exactly are you saying?

I agree with Dutch that the two cases are night and day apart from each other and actually highlight the problems of CPS in general. But in this case even do we need a separate agency for this or is it more a criminal case? I suppose there needs to be an organization to take care of the kids in these circumstances, but the repercussions to the family should be a matter of law, with all the inherent rights and responsibilities, not unfettered policy.

Since when is trolling allowing for another point of view? Explaining the possible conclusion to the decisions we make, and the words that we live by?

As far as an agency instead of law goes, where children are concerned it's necessary. If you can't see the damage seeing parents carted away in handcuffs can do to a five year old, then I'm not sure you should have a part in any lengthy conversation therein.

Nobody said there were not examples of CPS being needed. Just that they need to be held accountable for decisions that they make. The example Loggrad gave the 16 year old should be in prison and the CPS agent that took the kid should be terminated and prosecuted, the foster parents in the home where the kid was raped should also be charged and stripped of foster care responsibility. The CPS have no accountability and that leads to more problems than it solves. Nobody should be free from accountability and that includes any and all divisions of the government. CPS should be there to help families not destroy them with no effort to do the right thing. Which in a lot of cases is normal procedure for that agency. Parents are treated as guilty without a trial. That is not how it should be handled. In both cases shown here it should be the governments responsibility to prove just cause BEFORE taking the kids. In your case they should learn to do it quickly to help save the life of that kid.
.
Also if the CPS takes a kid out of a home the extended family should have a chance to watch the kid while the government tries to prove their case.

But they do have someone to report to... Brent Platt is the director for Child and Family Services here in Utah, a branch of Human Services. Executive director of Human Services is Ann Silverberg Williamson, who sits lateral to the Bureau of Internal audit and review. They, together, answer to Interim Committees, who report to the legislative management committee, who report directly to the Utah state legislature. So if you have a real beef, I recommend sending a letter to someone on one of those committees.

Now, why take the kids first and ask questions later? Let's say you're a child, and you report that your parents are abusing you, and show clear bruises. So an investigation ensues and takes two weeks to finish up.

Parents knowing that they're under investigation, can you seriously not imagine that child being in any danger mentally or physically? If the parents are not physical there's nothing to worry about... but what if the parents are abusive? What if abuse runs in the family vertically, not just in this generation?

A little bit of leeway is not only justified, but necessary for the health and safety of children.

 

[LogGrad98]

Since when is trolling allowing for another point of view? Explaining the possible conclusion to the decisions we make, and the words that we live by?

As far as an agency instead of law goes, where children are concerned it's necessary. If you can't see the damage seeing parents carted away in handcuffs can do to a five year old, then I'm not sure you should have a part in any lengthy conversation therein.



But they do have someone to report to... Brent Platt is the director for Child and Family Services here in Utah, a branch of Human Services. Executive director of Human Services is Ann Silverberg Williamson, who sits lateral to the Bureau of Internal audit and review. They, together, answer to Interim Committees, who report to the legislative management committee, who report directly to the Utah state legislature. So if you have a real beef, I recommend sending a letter to someone on one of those committees.

Now, why take the kids first and ask questions later? Let's say you're a child, and you report that your parents are abusing you, and show clear bruises. So an investigation ensues and takes two weeks to finish up.

Parents knowing that they're under investigation, can you seriously not imagine that child being in any danger mentally or physically? If the parents are not physical there's nothing to worry about... but what if the parents are abusive? What if abuse runs in the family vertically, not just in this generation?

A little bit of leeway is not only justified, but necessary for the health and safety of children.

Which children? Are you saying it is better for some families to be destroyed so other families (or children) can be saved? Is it better to over-correct or under-correct?

If there actually is oversight can you show any cases where the CPS was punished for abusing their power? There are plenty of useless committees and oversight in government. My opinion is this one is just as useless.

 

[LogGrad98]

Interesting read on the subject.

https://justicewomen.com/tips_bewarechildprotectiveservices.html

First, the body of law governing the CPS/juvenile court system is so vague and open ended that virtually any and all decisions made by these bodies falls within the scope of the laws.

Second, at best, CPS and juvenile courts makes these decisions based on the 'preponderance of evidence' standard. This is the lowest judicial standard of evidence. The preponderance of the evidence standard is 51% of the evidence. It's sometimes called the 'more likely than not' standard. What this means is that all CPS needs to support a decision is evidence on their side, the CPS side, which is just a sliver more than the evidence on your side. This is a far cry from the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard criminal officials must establish before they can convict someone of a crime, even a misdemeanor.

edited to add this one too...

Add to this the huge initial mistake many women make of thinking of CPS as their advocate or friend or counselor. They pour their hearts out to the worker, giving the worker a whole ocean of intimate information in which to fish for evidence against them.

Yes, it's true that with all this latitude, the CPS system can actually do things right and put its full resources into helping the mother and child to get safely on their feet together. And indeed, there are plenty of cases where this is exactly what happens. But there are a number of things that makes the system tend toward abusive responses. One of these is the cardinal truth of any power. Unchecked power always tends towards abuses of that power. And the power of CPS is hugely unchecked. And worse yet, as is discussed later, it is exercised in secret.

 

[Harambe]

Which children? Are you saying it is better for some families to be destroyed so other families (or children) can be saved? Is it better to over-correct or under-correct?

If there actually is oversight can you show any cases where the CPS was punished for abusing their power? There are plenty of useless committees and oversight in government. My opinion is this one is just as useless.

Sure. It's all about where you look.

https://theadvocate.com/home/656687-79/two-dcfs-employees-suspended.html

Where over-correct/under-Correct is concerned, it's not that simple at all. Taking the children out of harms way when there's a reported issue is the right thing to do. At that point the parent does not lose their rights. At that point, an investigation takes place, and a recommendation is made to the state. The state then does what it see's fit.

An example of a system going wrong; My sister is useless as crap, and can't take care of herself, let alone a child. Her children were taken away twice before they were never returned. The first time investigators came in, gave her a chance to get her life together. She did, and her children were returned. Six months later, she proved her incompetence, and they gave her another chance. The next 6 month checkup was the end of that.

My sister and the child's father separated because he was an abusive drunk; mentally, physically, and in the end sexually. After being out of the picture for 4 years, the court then gave the father every chance in the world to be a good parent. Eight years, three court dates, and numerous reports from the child and her schools later(to get away from living in the world he created, they moved a lot), not to mention a mentality of abuse thrust upon this child that she now has to live with the rest of her life, DCFS THEN had enough evidence to strip him of his parental rights. Said man can not be located right now at any address he's ever put down... it's probably for the best.

We can trade stories of DCFS abusive of power that tug at the heart strings all you want, but it's going to fall on deaf ears. In my experience DCFS gave both parents every chance in the world to get their crap together before taking that child away. The second time GREATLY to the child's detriment. She has worse panic attacks than I ever have at just the possibility of her father being near.

So let's not paint DCFS as the group that acts all too often too quickly, because in my experience and through my personal pain, that hasn't happened. It's been the polar opposite.

 

[LogGrad98]

^

Just more evidence the system is completely broken. Need to blow it up and start over.

 

[Harambe]

^

Just more evidence the system is completely broken. Need to blow it up and start over.

Loggrad: System is broken breaking up families
ElRoach0: System is broken for taking too long to break up "families"
Loggrad: ... Told you.
ElRoach0: RRRRAAAAGGGHH!!!!!! *flips table*

Oddly enough, I'll take it.

 

[Dumb Bloke]

Its pretty well established that society is better at protecting children from bad parenting. If it weren't for societal pressure these parents rights types would still be wearing kkk costumes on the weekends and beating up gays.

 

[DutchJazzer]

But they do have someone to report to... Brent Platt is the director for Child and Family Services here in Utah, a branch of Human Services. Executive director of Human Services is Ann Silverberg Williamson, who sits lateral to the Bureau of Internal audit and review. They, together, answer to Interim Committees, who report to the legislative management committee, who report directly to the Utah state legislature. So if you have a real beef, I recommend sending a letter to someone on one of those committees.

ooh thats acountabilty.
wow, not trolling here. but seriously are they acountable to the citizens? no!
goverment acounting to government is the problem.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Sure. It's all about where you look.

https://theadvocate.com/home/656687-79/two-dcfs-employees-suspended.html

Where over-correct/under-Correct is concerned, it's not that simple at all. Taking the children out of harms way when there's a reported issue is the right thing to do.

to me it is not about over correcting or under correcting.
but about society thinking stranger danger is a real thing. then when someone sees it for the ******** it is, and allows their kids to have responsibility by being free range kids. the dumb masses en cps think whit their heart and emotions instead of logically with stats and science backing them up. they destroy that family.

without trial, scientific/statistcial backing. so on second point my thread title stays. parents should parent and society and cps should get the **** out.
and malnutrition inst a part of parenting, abuse is not a part of parenting. those things are against the law!

 

[DutchJazzer]

Loggrad: System is broken breaking up families
ElRoach0: System is broken for taking too long to break up "families"
Loggrad: ... Told you.
ElRoach0: RRRRAAAAGGGHH!!!!!! *flips table*

Oddly enough, I'll take it.

so either risk getting my (hypothetical) family taken away. or parent the "right" way.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Its pretty well established that society is better at protecting children from bad parenting. If it weren't for societal pressure these parents rights types would still be wearing kkk costumes on the weekends and beating up gays.

omg omg kkk used to beat up gays?

where can i join.





































calm down dont get your panties up in a bunch this is a JOKE.

 

[Harambe]

ooh thats acountabilty.
wow, not trolling here. but seriously are they acountable to the citizens? no!
goverment acounting to government is the problem.

They are accountable to the citizens. Because they're accountable, you see them doing everything they can to appease both sides in this case. Did you even look at what "Unsubstantiated child neglect" actually means?

An unsubstantiated finding is typically made when CPS has some information supporting a conclusion of child neglect, or when seemingly credible reports are at odds with each other, or when there is insufficient information for a more definitive conclusion.

So they looked into it, found nothing, and kept on trucking. But because they've got to save face in the public eye, they made a file for them.

As this continues to happen, that psuedo blank file will continue to grow, and nothing will continue to happen.

Now, it's a damn shame DCS hasn't just up and told these neighbors to eff off. But if they did that at the first sign of neglect, they wouldn't be doing their jobs.

to me it is not about over correcting or under correcting.
but about society thinking stranger danger is a real thing. then when someone sees it for the ******** it is, and allows their kids to have responsibility by being free range kids. the dumb masses en cps think whit their heart and emotions instead of logically with stats and science backing them up. they destroy that family.

without trial, scientific/statistcial backing. so on second point my thread title stays. parents should parent and society and cps should get the **** out.
and malnutrition inst a part of parenting, abuse is not a part of parenting. those things are against the law!

The community they live in is either dumb as ****, or has a vendetta against these two adults and are playing hardball. As stated above, it's quite the shame they haven't started telling these people to shut up.

What I'd really like to know is who made the reports, and their rationale behind them. not what's on paper.. but why these two are singled out. That would be a piece of investigative journalism I'd read. It's the community that doesn't have accountability in this story, Not the DCS.

so either risk getting my (hypothetical) family taken away. or parent the "right" way.

As seen in the reports, unsubstantiated neglect. Which doesn't go on your criminal record at all, and is admittedly just an empty file. No family is broken up over unsubstantiated neglect.

 

[LogGrad98]

Loggrad: System is broken breaking up families
ElRoach0: System is broken for taking too long to break up "families"
Loggrad: ... Told you.
ElRoach0: RRRRAAAAGGGHH!!!!!! *flips table*

Oddly enough, I'll take it.

I'm with you on this. We started down this road with an example of CPS overstepping their bounds (pick up someone's kid because of allegations, and shaky allegations at that - in fact admittedly from the CPS "unsubstantiated", and self-righteous "you have to parent this way or lose your kids" kind of crap), from there we made the statement that CPS is broken. The example you brought up didn't negate the other examples, it highlighted MORE problems with the system. Bottom line, the system is broken, in just about every way. It needs to be overhauled, or better, replaced entirely. We need to protect kids while also protecting families and other victims within the family, not at the expense of any of them.

But I was wondering what people thought about this. It is virtually impossible to ensure no abuse or miss-use of the system while at the same time ensuring that every single child is always perfectly protected. It just can't happen, we are imperfect and always will be. So is it better to over-correct, and run the risk of destroying some families to ensure EVERY child gets protected where possible, or better to under-correct, and run the risk that some children will remain in bad situations in the interest of protecting families? That is a tough question.