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My ongoing fight with UTA police

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franklin

Well-Known Member
I have what's called an eco pass. They want me to tap on/tap off and one day I forgot and this a-hole cop berates me for stealing from a future contract that does not exist, and writes me a warning citation. I looked up the ordinance from their website:

CHAPTER 2
Regulations Governing Fare Payment

Section 3 Prohibited Conduct - Class I Infractions

No person shall:

B. Enter or exit a Transit Vehicle that utilizes prepaid tickets or occupying a Rail Platform upon disembarking a Transit Vehicle without paying the applicable fare or possessing valid Proof of Fare Payment.


From the definitions:

U. “Proof of Fare Payment” means a valid bus transfer, TRAX ticket, FrontRunner ticket or other fare media issued by UTA and used within the date and time designated on such transfer, ticket, or card. “Proof of Fare Payment” also includes any valid annual, seasonal, monthly, Eco Pass, Ed Pass (when accompanied by school identification), Med Pass or other passes. “Proof of Fare Payment” also includes in the context of UTA’s Electronic Fare Collection (“EFC”) a positive signal representing fare payment by an EFC reader device to scan a contactless credit or debit card or other EFC fare media, when in the use of a Transit Police Officer, or other Authorized UTA Representative to inspect fare payment.


That is as cut and dry as it gets. I was not breaking any ordinance and UTA police are issuing citations for a law that doesn't exist.


I got another citation today. I called to find the court hours and there is no court. I'm supposed to pay a $167 fine or meet with an adjudicator who is employed by UTA. I've talked with them in the past and they're so bat **** crazy that they think that ordinance somehow requires me to use their stupid tracking tool. I'm not expecting any fair result.


Since there's no judge, I asked the cop what happens if I simply rip this stupid thing up and forget about it. At that point I will be banned from UTA's "property" (the biggest b.s. in Utah) and will be cited for trespassing if caught.


In other words, if I don't bend over and do whatever UTA police require without a law or ordinance requiring it then I will be banned for life from a publicly provided private service. It's really not a big deal to tap on/off and I'm being petty, but I refuse to allow these thug cops to go above the law.


My questions are 1) if the UTA adjudicator is an idiot like the last one then what recourse can I take to secure my ability to ride public transit, and 2) at what point does this become harassment by the police? 5 tickets? 10???
 
Would they not cancel the ticket if you showed them proof that you had a pass, and simply forgot to tap? There isn't much that can be said about the situation. If you feel strongly enough about the principle, and if you're made of money, you can try consulting with a lawyer. But at the end of the day, you just have to accept it as the price of privatization.
 
franklin said:
I have what's called an eco pass. They want me to tap on/tap off and one day I forgot and this a-hole cop berates me for stealing from a future contract that does not exist, and writes me a warning citation. I looked up the ordinance from their website:

CHAPTER 2
Regulations Governing Fare Payment

Section 3 Prohibited Conduct - Class I Infractions

No person shall:

B. Enter or exit a Transit Vehicle that utilizes prepaid tickets or occupying a Rail Platform upon disembarking a Transit Vehicle without paying the applicable fare or possessing valid Proof of Fare Payment.


From the definitions:

U. “Proof of Fare Payment” means a valid bus transfer, TRAX ticket, FrontRunner ticket or other fare media issued by UTA and used within the date and time designated on such transfer, ticket, or card. “Proof of Fare Payment” also includes any valid annual, seasonal, monthly, Eco Pass, Ed Pass (when accompanied by school identification), Med Pass or other passes. “Proof of Fare Payment” also includes in the context of UTA’s Electronic Fare Collection (“EFC”) a positive signal representing fare payment by an EFC reader device to scan a contactless credit or debit card or other EFC fare media, when in the use of a Transit Police Officer, or other Authorized UTA Representative to inspect fare payment.


That is as cut and dry as it gets. I was not breaking any ordinance and UTA police are issuing citations for a law that doesn't exist.


I got another citation today. I called to find the court hours and there is no court. I'm supposed to pay a $167 fine or meet with an adjudicator who is employed by UTA. I've talked with them in the past and they're so bat **** crazy that they think that ordinance somehow requires me to use their stupid tracking tool. I'm not expecting any fair result.


Since there's no judge, I asked the cop what happens if I simply rip this stupid thing up and forget about it. At that point I will be banned from UTA's "property" (the biggest b.s. in Utah) and will be cited for trespassing if caught.


In other words, if I don't bend over and do whatever UTA police require without a law or ordinance requiring it then I will be banned for life from a publicly provided private service. It's really not a big deal to tap on/off and I'm being petty, but I refuse to allow these thug cops to go above the law.


My questions are 1) if the UTA adjudicator is an idiot like the last one then what recourse can I take to secure my ability to ride public transit, and 2) at what point does this become harassment by the police? 5 tickets? 10???
Click to expand...

The line after bold seems to indicate that they can give you a ticket.

and

Just to get the story straight. You regularly don't pay(steal) and you're pissed that they caught you. Yep they're definitely Nazi's.
 
♪alt13 said:
The line after bold seems to indicate that they can give you a ticket.

and

Just to get the story straight. You regularly don't pay(steal) and you're pissed that they caught you. Yep they're definitely Nazi's.
Click to expand...

He pays. He has a pass. He just didn't tap on the sensor. Am I getting this right?
 
Siro said:
Would they not cancel the ticket if you showed them proof that you had a pass, and simply forgot to tap? There isn't much that can be said about the situation. If you feel strongly enough about the principle, and if you're made of money, you can try consulting with a lawyer. But at the end of the day, you just have to accept it as the price of privatization.
Click to expand...

Why should they? That excuse doesn't work for my debit card at the grocery store. I'm sorry officer I forgot to swipe card. He didn't forget. I live downtown and ride the train all the time. There aren't that many trax cops. The chances of him being stopped by an officer the only "two" times he forgot is just not realistic.
 
The first time around the adjudicator, Michelle Larsen from their legal department, customer service, etc. were all adamant about their asinine interpretation.

I do have a picture of the officer holding my driver's license and my pass while she ran my id.
 
♪alt13 said:
https://www.rideuta.com/mc/?page=RidingUTA-PayingYourFare-DiscountPrograms-EcoPass

If you park and don't pay the meter you get a ticket. If you Park and claim you didn't see the no parking sign you still get a ticket. It is Franklin's responsibility, not the ticketing officers to remember to tap the card.
Click to expand...

Ah, so it charges you each time you tap? I thought it was a fixed monthly rate that you pay and ride as often as you like. In that case, I'm with you. UTA did nothing wrong.
 
Siro said:
Ah, so it charges you each time you tap? I thought it was a fixed monthly rate that you pay and ride as often as you like. In that case, I'm with you. UTA did nothing wrong.
Click to expand...

A fixed monthly rate doesn't change anything if you think about it. You agree to pay a certain rate in return for tapping the card so they know what to charge you/your company/or for the program in general.
 
♪alt13 said:
A fixed monthly rate doesn't change anything if you think about it. You agree to pay a certain rate in return for tapping the card so they know what to charge you/your company/or for the program in general.
Click to expand...

But in that case, Franklin gains nothing from not tapping, and it lends credibility to his forgetting claim. If the tapping is simply for tracking/statistical purposes, it is a very different situation from stealing as you said earlier.
 
Siro said:
Ah, so it charges you each time you tap? I thought it was a fixed monthly rate that you pay and ride as often as you like. In that case, I'm with you. UTA did nothing wrong.
Click to expand...

Mine doesn't. Alt's being an idiot. It's fully paid for in advance and good for 1 year. It is not an EFC and is not tapped to pay the fare. They want me to tap for internal tracking; so they can justify more funding from the legislature. That's there issue, not mine.


alt, go hang out with highlandhomie somewhere else.
 
I think it's absurd to give you a ticket or warning for that.
You paid. It's on them to figure out how it's used.
You or your company paid for the service, you should not be penalized for using it.

They should nicely ask you to try to remember to scan it is all.
 
UTA is ****.

For the amount of money the spend on employees and programs we should have one of the best public transportation systems in the US. Instead we have a ****ty product, ****ty employees and a ****ty run organization.

I would push the issue then take them to court if they insist or try and ban you.
 
Siro said:
But in that case, Franklin gains nothing from not tapping, and it lends credibility to his forgetting claim. If the tapping is simply for tracking/statistical purposes, it is a very different situation from stealing as you said earlier.
Click to expand...
I vote this
 
Siro said:
But in that case, Franklin gains nothing from not tapping, and it lends credibility to his forgetting claim. If the tapping is simply for tracking/statistical purposes, it is a very different situation from stealing as you said earlier.
Click to expand...

No it isn't they base the quote for his company off of that. Stealing by proxy is still stealing.

franklin said:
Mine doesn't. Alt's being an idiot. It's fully paid for in advance and good for 1 year. It is not an EFC and is not tapped to pay the fare. They want me to tap for internal tracking; so they can justify more funding from the legislature. That's there issue, not mine.


alt, go hang out with highlandhomie somewhere else.
Click to expand...

You're an entitled whiner.
 
♪alt13 said:
https://www.rideuta.com/mc/?page=RidingUTA-PayingYourFare-DiscountPrograms-EcoPass

If you park and don't pay the meter you get a ticket. If you Park and claim you didn't see the no parking sign you still get a ticket. It is Franklin's responsibility, not the ticketing officers to remember to tap the card.
Click to expand...

New name, still daft. The Eco-pass the U gives looks exactly like the one on the site, and is likely the same as Frankie's, is prepaid. Meaning if I go take the bus, nothing leaves my bank account, or the U's deep pocket's after the initial cost my company gave them in January. $2.50/$5.50 fair market is just what's covered "per use", not what's removed each time you use it. "We'll cover the first UP TO $2.50 or $5.50, pending what level you choose."

If you go into a grocery store and don't swipe your debit card, they have the right to stop you and insist you pay for your groceries.

If you go into a grocery store that you ordered things from, paid before you arrived, picked those items up and tried to leave, they still have the right to stop you. After showing them your receipt, they do not have the right to fine you $167. Request you identify yourself in the future, make a little black mark in the book of Frankie, sure. But berate and fine you? That's crossing the line.

It seems poorly conceived, to me, that it's written in there that proof of fair payment can be your Eco-pass, and you still get the shaft after inspection of a Transit Authority Officer.
 
♪alt13 said:
No it isn't they base the quote for his company off of that. Stealing by proxy is still stealing.



You're an entitled whiner.
Click to expand...

So you're sticking to an irrational argument. All your analogies are irrelevant and inapplicable. He paid for the ride, and ticketing him for the offense of NOT PAYING because he did not follow their survey rule is unfair. The most apt analogy is that of an insurance card. If you are pulled over and cannot show proof of insurance, then the policeman can give you a ticket for not having insurance. Typically however, if you can prove to the court that you DID have insurance, and simply forgot your card, then you'll be let go. Because the basis of the ticket - you not having insurance - is no longer valid.

He paid for the ride. Period. Your original argument about him not paying and stealing was utterly and completely wrong. No amount of logic stretching can salvage it now.
 
ElRoach0 said:
New name, still daft. The Eco-pass the U gives looks exactly like the one on the site, and is likely the same as Frankie's, is prepaid. Meaning if I go take the bus, nothing leaves my bank account, or the U's deep pocket's after the initial cost my company gave them in January. $2.50/$5.50 fair market is just what's covered "per use", not what's removed each time you use it. "We'll cover the first UP TO $2.50 or $5.50, pending what level you choose."

If you go into a grocery store and don't swipe your debit card, they have the right to stop you and insist you pay for your groceries.

If you go into a grocery store that you ordered things from, paid before you arrived, picked those items up and tried to leave, they still have the right to stop you. After showing them your receipt, they do not have the right to fine you $167. Request you identify yourself in the future, make a little black mark in the book of Frankie, sure. But berate and fine you? That's crossing the line.

It seems poorly conceived, to me, that it's written in there that proof of fair payment can be your Eco-pass, and you still get the shaft after inspection of a Transit Authority Officer.
Click to expand...

If 7-Eleven offers an unlimited Slurpee card for $50/month on the condition that you swipe it. If your mom buys you a card and you leave the store without swiping you have stolen the Slurpee.
 
♪alt13 said:
If 7-Eleven offers an unlimited Slurpee card for $50/month on the condition that you swipe it. If your mom buys you a card and you leave the store without swiping you have stolen the Slurpee.
Click to expand...

Except the part where you actually paid for it.
 
Siro said:
So you're sticking to an irrational argument. All your analogies are irrelevant and inapplicable. He paid for the ride, and ticketing him for the offense of NOT PAYING because he did not follow their survey rule is unfair. The most apt analogy is that of an insurance card. If you are pulled over and cannot show proof of insurance, then the policeman can give you a ticket for not having insurance. Typically however, if you can prove to the court that you DID have insurance, and simply forgot your card, then you'll be let go. Because the basis of the ticket - you not having insurance - is no longer valid.

He paid for the ride. Period. Your original argument about him not paying and stealing was utterly and completely wrong. No amount of logic stretching can salvage it now.
Click to expand...

There is nothing irrational about it. Tapping the card is payment. That's how discount programs generally work.
 
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