Prion relocation

[The Thriller]

Huh...private developers? Is it state land? If so, why isn't the state telling the developers to go f themselves.

I'm sure they promised the state it would be a great economic benefit to move...how about they foot the bill for the move, and then they can make all that money back with how much money they'll be rolling in with.

BAHAHAHAAHAHA!

Private land developers?

Awwwww Nate Nate Nate, you're so innocent.

The prison is currently relocated in Draper. Guess who owns undeveloped property to the west of the prison? You got it, senator Howard Stephenson of Draper. Guess who was on the Prison Relocation Committee and has been known to intimidate those who don't agree with him? You got it, Speaker of the House Greg Hughes, also from Draper.

Add in the fact that Sen Majority Leader Neisderhouser, Brad Wilson (leader of the PRC), are all land developers. hell even the governor has ties to real estate. Notice how none of the PRC folks represented any of the new sites. None of these ******** wanted the new prison in their backyards but they all wanted to benefit big time financially from it.

Utah: Where Medicaid Expansion and public education are evil cuz it's socialism.

And

State owned booze and taxpayer funded unnecessary prison relocations to benefit a handful of land developers is good and somehow not socialism...

 

[Miggs]

The location of the current prison is right at the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley where it meets Utah County. The area used to be pretty unpopulated with mostly horse property and such out there. But as urban sprawl out of both Utah County and Salt Lake County comes together there having a prison in that location isn't very desirable. Not to mention the cities that used to be made up of horse property are now home to most of our McMansions. Then on the Utah County side there are some of the most upper class neighborhoods just there and Adobe built a headquarters and IMFlash has their headquarters around there and they are hoping the area where the prison is now becomes Utah's high tech corridor.

The location of the prison is Point of the Mountain. Geographically both the Oquirrh mountains and the Wasatch mountains trail off to a point with a relatively small opening that joins Utah and Salt Lake Valleys. The prison is typically referred to as point of the mountain, as in "So I hear your brother is doing another stint up at the point of the mountain..." Or sometimes people will just call it "the point."

But the prison was there first it sounds like, yes?

 

[Gameface]

I gotta disagree with ya there. I've worked in every neighborhood along the Wasatch front(and back) there are some nice houses in that area but it's far from "home to most of our McMansions". East Sandy, Walker Lane, North Avenues, Federal Heights, East Park City, Alpine, etc all smoke west Draper in the Mcmansion department. Most of them folk want to be up on a hill not down in a valley next to I-15. Honestly most of the houses down there don't qualify as McMansions. There is a couple gated communities but the houses aren't that large.

I don't consider the houses on Walker lane McMansions. They are just mansions. That's an old neighborhood.

Alpine is not exactly near the point of the mountain but you take the first exit before/after crossing point of the mountain to get there.

Sandy, again, is an older area. I think of McMansions as pretty new houses built to the same quality standards as your typical single family home but just jumbo sized (more than 4000 sq.ft.) with relatively small yards and pretty close to their neighbors.

I mean it's cool, I know Draper, Riverton are not the most upscale places in Utah. But they are now, as of the last 15 years, considered "nice" places to live, whereas 20+ years ago they were tiny and mostly had horse property. So they are areas for development and the places immediately surrounding them, like Bluffdale, are prime pickings for developers.

But the biggest point isn't the high end neighborhoods, it's the tech companies.

 

[Miggs]

But the prison was there first it sounds like, yes?

I'd genuinely like an answer to this question.

 

[Gameface]

I'd genuinely like an answer to this question.

Yeah. The prison has been there as long as I've been alive and when there wasn't much but farms and horse property around there.

Fun fact, there is a natural spring where the prison sits and it was home to Utah's first brewery which was started by Porter Rockwell.

 

[♪alt13]

I don't consider the houses on Walker lane McMansions. They are just mansions. That's an old neighborhood.

Alpine is not exactly near the point of the mountain but you take the first exit before/after crossing point of the mountain to get there.

Sandy, again, is an older area. I think of McMansions as pretty new houses built to the same quality standards as your typical single family home but just jumbo sized (more than 4000 sq.ft.) with relatively small yards and pretty close to their neighbors.

I mean it's cool, I know Draper, Riverton are not the most upscale places in Utah. But they are now, as of the last 15 years, considered "nice" places to live, whereas 20+ years ago they were tiny and mostly had horse property. So they are areas for development and the places immediately surrounding them, like Bluffdale, are prime pickings for developers.

But the biggest point isn't the high end neighborhoods, it's the tech companies.

You do realize that Lehi/Highland still have a **** load of land to develop. The truth is we will run out of skilled workers before we run out of land in that area. Tech companies aren't going to decide not to move to Utah because of the Prison. They will just build in Lehi and Highland instead of Draper. This isn't about getting Tech companies to come to the Wasatch front it's about where those companies will build.

Moving the prison is going to cost 700 million dollars. We have a second prison in Gunnison that they are expanding right now. The average stay in prison is just 26 months. Maybe we should be reevaluating how we deal with low level offenders, instead of throwing 3/4 of a billion dollars at an institution that seems to make them worse. We should be considering county jails and alternatives to prison sentences. We should be working on shrinking our prison population, not building a new prison to fill.

https://fox13now.com/2015/08/11/prison-relocation-commission-recommends/
https://crbiprod.utah.gov/cognos10/cgi-bin/cognos.cgi?b_action=xts.run&m=portal/cc.xts&gohome=
https://www.alec.org/initiatives/prison-overcrowding/prison-overcrowding-utah/

 

[Miggs]

So people willingly moved next to or near a prison and now don't want it there.

Got it.

 

[mellow]

You do realize that Lehi/Highland still have a **** load of land to develop. The truth is we will run out of skilled workers before we run out of land in that area. Tech companies aren't going to decide not to move to Utah because of the Prison. They will just build in Lehi and Highland instead of Draper. This isn't about getting Tech companies to come to the Wasatch front it's about where those companies will build.

Moving the prison is going to cost 700 million dollars. We have a second prison in Gunnison that they are expanding right now. The average stay in prison is just 26 months. Maybe we should be reevaluating how we deal with low level offenders, instead of throwing 3/4 of a billion dollars at an institution that seems to make them worse. We should be considering county jails and alternatives to prison sentences. We should be working on shrinking our prison population, not building a new prison to fill.

https://fox13now.com/2015/08/11/prison-relocation-commission-recommends/
https://crbiprod.utah.gov/cognos10/cgi-bin/cognos.cgi?b_action=xts.run&m=portal/cc.xts&gohome=
https://www.alec.org/initiatives/prison-overcrowding/prison-overcrowding-utah/

A couple of thoughts....

Why do we continue to build concentrated trip generating centers along I-15? It can't be widened forever.

Also, I was dumbfounded to read that the atl Hwks, Michael Scott, is facing 25 years in prison for a couple of baggies full of drugs. I had no idea the sentences were so high, that is insane. There has got to be a better way, a couple of months, some big fines, loss of driving privileges....there are lots of options that don't result in locking up and housing millions of people for extended sentences....and may result in those "criminals" actually returning to society, and might save society a few billion dollars.

 

[Gameface]

If we're talking about reforming our justice system and sending way fewer people to prison then yeah, I'm 100% on board. Like 100% 100% on board.

I'm not trying to justify the prison move, but for people not living in Salt Lake or Utah Counties, a little background on the area might help them understand why there are wealthy people and large businesses who want it to happen.

 

[mellow]

BAHAHAHAAHAHA!

Private land developers?

Awwwww Nate Nate Nate, you're so innocent.

The prison is currently relocated in Draper. Guess who owns undeveloped property to the west of the prison? You got it, senator Howard Stephenson of Draper. Guess who was on the Prison Relocation Committee and has been known to intimidate those who don't agree with him? You got it, Speaker of the House Greg Hughes, also from Draper.

Add in the fact that Sen Majority Leader Neisderhouser, Brad Wilson (leader of the PRC), are all land developers. hell even the governor has ties to real estate. Notice how none of the PRC folks represented any of the new sites. None of these ******** wanted the new prison in their backyards but they all wanted to benefit big time financially from it.

Utah: Where Medicaid Expansion and public education are evil cuz it's socialism.

And

State owned booze and taxpayer funded unnecessary prison relocations to benefit a handful of land developers is good and somehow not socialism...

The legislature is owned and run by developers, who also invest in treatment homes and payday loan shops. d you really think they are motivated by their self interest rather than public good? Give the same position, Would any of us be any better than them?

 

[♪alt13]

A couple of thoughts....

Why do we continue to build concentrated trip generating centers along I-15? It can't be widened forever.

Sales tax. The city gets some, the state gets some, the city next door gets nothing. This is why you see hotels in places that don't seem reasonable. This is why each town clamors to get a new shopping center that chokes one a mile down the road. If a portion of that revenue was shared regionally; suburbs would stay suburbs(after all that's why people move there), the city would be more lively(after all that's why people move there).

I tend to think that if we increase the number of jobs downtown we can hit "critical mass" and have options we wouldn't otherwise have, like express trains. The alternative is to spread everything out. When you spread **** out you don't reduce the commute because most people live where they want(close to family, good neighborhood, nice view, etc) and work where they can find the best job. You end up needing to expand every road. You end up with traffic everywhere, ****ty air, and endless strip malls/office parks.

I find it interesting that the state is ready to spend big on a prison that is a revenue hole in order to "attract" businesses that are probably going to come to the Wasatch Front anyway. Yet they can't get a convention center hotel done that would bring millions of dollars into the economy from new conventions. Not to mention retain the 45 million dollars the Outdoor Retailers brings every year. I guess it will be another year of them having to stay as far away as Provo. So don't be shocked when that convention leaves replaced with nothing.

I think the way we are headed is a shame. A big blob of meh crammed between the mountains. Each city/town should have an identity that plays to it's strengths but with the way we do revenue it just isn't going to happen.

 

[The Thriller]

The legislature is owned and run by developers, who also invest in treatment homes and payday loan shops. d you really think they are motivated by their self interest rather than public good? Give the same position, Would any of us be any better than them?

Is this a trick question?

Yes, I believe most Utahns would be better than our legislature.

Our legislature is one of the most corrupt, vindictive, and selfish groups of people I know.

All you need to do is look at our own horrific history of shady business deals, lack of spending for public education, and commitment to running a theocracy. Look at how the employees at the DABC have been treated over the past few years. Look at how we still refuse to expand Medicaid leaving close to 100,000 Utahns without health insurance. Look at how much resistance is put up when any pollution regulation is proposed. Look at how the negotiated compromise on Count My Vote is now being sued by the Utah GOP (who negotiated the compromise in the first place). Look at how we have not one but two AGs facing 15+ years in the clink. Look at how putting propositions on the ballet has become impossible after we the people overturned against public vouchers in 2007.

Howard Stephenson and the boys know they can bend Utahns over and they'll just raise their arm to the square and take it.

One party systems always breed sick and disgusting corruption. Here in Utah, when 1 party is the Jesus party while the other is Satan's party, it creates an unholy sense of entitlement for the right politicians. The GOP doesn't have to be responsible since they never are held accountable.

Is there another state in the entire union that has a more homogenous population? If you're white, male, Mormon, and republican, you may have a long and profitable career in politics.

 

[LogGrad98]

Is this a trick question?

Yes, I believe most Utahns would be better than our legislature.

Our legislature is one of the most corrupt, vindictive, and selfish groups of people I know.

All you need to do is look at our own horrific history of shady business deals, lack of spending for public education, and commitment to running a theocracy. Look at how the employees at the DABC have been treated over the past few years. Look at how we still refuse to expand Medicaid leaving close to 100,000 Utahns without health insurance. Look at how much resistance is put up when any pollution regulation is proposed. Look at how the negotiated compromise on Count My Vote is now being sued by the Utah GOP (who negotiated the compromise in the first place). Look at how we have not one but two AGs facing 15+ years in the clink. Look at how putting propositions on the ballet has become impossible after we the people overturned against public vouchers in 2007.

Howard Stephenson and the boys know they can bend Utahns over and they'll just raise their arm to the square and take it.

One party systems always breed sick and disgusting corruption. Here in Utah, when 1 party is the Jesus party while the other is Satan's party, it creates an unholy sense of entitlement for the right politicians. The GOP doesn't have to be responsible since they never are held accountable.

Is there another state in the entire union that has a more homogenous population? If you're white, male, Mormon, and republican, you may have a long and profitable career in politics.

Wait you know the entire legislature personally?

 

[Miggs]

Is this a trick question?

Yes, I believe most Utahns would be better than our legislature.

Our legislature is one of the most corrupt, vindictive, and selfish groups of people I know.

All you need to do is look at our own horrific history of shady business deals, lack of spending for public education, and commitment to running a theocracy. Look at how the employees at the DABC have been treated over the past few years. Look at how we still refuse to expand Medicaid leaving close to 100,000 Utahns without health insurance. Look at how much resistance is put up when any pollution regulation is proposed. Look at how the negotiated compromise on Count My Vote is now being sued by the Utah GOP (who negotiated the compromise in the first place). Look at how we have not one but two AGs facing 15+ years in the clink. Look at how putting propositions on the ballet has become impossible after we the people overturned against public vouchers in 2007.

Howard Stephenson and the boys know they can bend Utahns over and they'll just raise their arm to the square and take it.

One party systems always breed sick and disgusting corruption. Here in Utah, when 1 party is the Jesus party while the other is Satan's party, it creates an unholy sense of entitlement for the right politicians. The GOP doesn't have to be responsible since they never are held accountable.

Is there another state in the entire union that has a more homogenous population? If you're white, male, Mormon, and republican, you may have a long and profitable career in politics.

i dont know much about utah and the details you stated here but if they are true, then i agree with you. great post thriller. i haven't seen you round here much but i always thought you were a pretty bad poster. if this is the new, brainy, less angry thriller, then i love it. you will be a definite nom for most improved poster. lemme know if you want the password into any of the private forums too.

 

[The Thriller]

Wait you know the entire legislature personally?

Yes, I know most members of our legislature personally. I would say 90 percent are some of the biggest self righteous d bags you'll ever know.

 

[♪alt13]

Yes, I know most members of our legislature personally. I would say 90 percent are some of the biggest self righteous d bags you'll ever know.

This prison thing reminds me of the debacle about putting a frontrunner station on Indian burial ground. I should pay better attention. I can't remember who owned that chunk and the surrounding properties.

 

[mellow]

Yes, I know most members of our legislature personally. I would say 90 percent are some of the biggest self righteous d bags you'll ever know.

That is quite the insight into thriller, No wonder he can sound so jaded.

 

[mellow]

Sales tax. The city gets some, the state gets some, the city next door gets nothing. This is why you see hotels in places that don't seem reasonable. This is why each town clamors to get a new shopping center that chokes one a mile down the road. If a portion of that revenue was shared regionally; suburbs would stay suburbs(after all that's why people move there), the city would be more lively(after all that's why people move there).

I tend to think that if we increase the number of jobs downtown we can hit "critical mass" and have options we wouldn't otherwise have, like express trains. The alternative is to spread everything out. When you spread **** out you don't reduce the commute because most people live where they want(close to family, good neighborhood, nice view, etc) and work where they can find the best job. You end up needing to expand every road. You end up with traffic everywhere, ****ty air, and endless strip malls/office parks.

I find it interesting that the state is ready to spend big on a prison that is a revenue hole in order to "attract" businesses that are probably going to come to the Wasatch Front anyway. Yet they can't get a convention center hotel done that would bring millions of dollars into the economy from new conventions. Not to mention retain the 45 million dollars the Outdoor Retailers brings every year. I guess it will be another year of them having to stay as far away as Provo. So don't be shocked when that convention leaves replaced with nothing.

I think the way we are headed is a shame. A big blob of meh crammed between the mountains. Each city/town should have an identity that plays to it's strengths but with the way we do revenue it just isn't going to happen.

Changing the point of sale, sales tax redistribution would be awesome. Land use decisions could be based on actual best use, and maybe resources could be utilized a bit more responsible. But it will never happen, the cities that are getting the pos tax would fight for it against the cities thAt don't. It might be an equal match, but then the land barons would step in and squash it. For it is the land barons who truly benefit from the cities competing for pos taxes. The cities, realizing they can increase their tax revenue are willing to give away everything to get it. With two or three cities competing for a commercial center the land barons can add millions to their profits by shaking down the highest bidder.

 

[The Thriller]

That is quite the insight into thriller, No wonder he can sound so jaded.

Ever seen the series House of Cards?

If you think the things depicted in that show doesn't happen within our legislature then I have beach front property in Kansas to sell ya. The now deceased former speaker, Becky Lockhart was a complete bully. I thought she was the worst speaker I'd ever met until I met the current one. Greg Hughes is corrupt as hell (like Mark Shurtleff). Throw in brainless puppets like Herbert (who merely has a high school diploma), corrupt politicians enriching themselves at the public's expense like Hughes or Howard Stephenson, and extremist yet powerful special interest groups like Mero's Sutherland Institute of Gargayle's Eagle Forum and you have one real mess to deal with.