Sorry gun advocates, you'll just have to suck it up

[Jamezz]

Just like someday you'll get laid?

It'll probably be with that really dorky guy you were crushing on during your DnD sessions.

Nice attempt at ridiculing my post by adding it in your signature, cucaracha.

 

[moevillini]

I think what was so particularly shocking about this shooting was that it happened live, on the air - - and the killer took a video while he was shooting and posted it online.

Not to split hairs here, but would this be considered a mass shooting?

 

[moevillini]

Gun violence just happens to be the prevalent meme nowadays. Tomorrow it'll be something else. Nothing malicious about it. Issues fall in and out of public consciousnesses, and there is no harm in taking the opportunity to analyze them.

BTW, vehicular homicides have had their chance in the light as well. For example, drunk driving wasn't taken seriously at all when I was a kid. And it still isn't in a lot of places outside the US. But once the issue entered public consciousness, it turned into a moral one. Very few people are publicly comfortable bragging about their drunk-driving skills.

very true



and it is sort of ironic that you don't see anybody protesting laws restricting driving while impaired - - wonder what would've happened had that been a part of the Bill of Rights?

 

[Siro]

I think what was so particularly shocking about this shooting was that it happened live, on the air - - and the killer took a video while he was shooting and posted it online.

Not to split hairs here, but would this be considered a mass shooting?

I don't think it should. The two were his intended targets.

 

[framer]

Name all the countries in the developed world with homicide rates over 7.7. I'll wait.


The best thing is that those numbers were taken in 2012. Imagine if it was done now, in 2015. Look at the numbers over the last three years. Lmfao.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/gra...ericas-guns?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/AmericasGuns

* The chart is "not comprehensive" what the hell is the point then? There were murders that happened locally in the 80's that certainly aren't listed there.

 

[franklin]

Here's how you know: what programs, acts, bills, amendments, motions, or movements are being proposed to address the systemic problems that are leading to gun violence?

Revoking the war on drugs has already been mentioned (as well as its shortcomings).


No solutions to addressing mental health.


No legitimate solutions to address gang violence, or crime in black communities.

If you had the decency for courteous discourse you would simply ask this question instead of attaching implications and pejoratives to it several times. In fact, as a long time member you are well aware that I am the biggest advocate here of curing America's problem of inner city violence and poverty. But you're not interested in sincere discourse or actual cures to problems. You want to turn this place into a steaming pile of **** and get your kicks in trolling anyone who will give you an ear. Take your crap back to spurstalk and every other NBA forum you troll.

 

[framer]

And how will that address mass shootings? Need I remind you of this trend? Seems like it:

Legalizing weed won't address this.

Also, that increase (if we believe the "non-comprehensive" chart) upticks pretty concurrently with the rise of the 24 hour cable news cycle. Can anyone name the shooter from the McDonalds Shooting or the Luby's shooting? I'll bet most can remember the names of a lot of the shooters from Columbine forward. Stop memorializing these guys in the media. Stop trying to "understand" why they did what they did. If someone grabs a gun and shoots 5 people they will be known by all of America, even if it is as a villain. Stop giving those people that. . .

 

[gandalfe]

Also, that increase (if we believe the "non-comprehensive" chart) upticks pretty concurrently with the rise of the 24 hour cable news cycle. Can anyone name the shooter from the McDonalds Shooting or the Luby's shooting? I'll bet most can remember the names of a lot of the shooters from Columbine forward. Stop memorializing these guys in the media. Stop trying to "understand" why they did what they did. If someone grabs a gun and shoots 5 people they will be known by all of America, even if it is as a villain. Stop giving those people that. . .

Also, the number of deaths caused by a firearm larger than a handgun has another interesting correlation...

https://tylervigen.com/view_correlation?id=3254

 

[Deleted member 848]

If you had the decency for courteous discourse you would simply ask this question instead of attaching implications and pejoratives to it several times.

My first post to you was pejorative-free-- but either way, it's quite rich that you expect me to conduct non-inflammatory conversations with you when you do this with other posters here on Jazzfanz. How am I supposed to take you seriously when I see the posts that you type in response to ElRoacho?

In fact, as a long time member you are well aware that I am the biggest advocate here of curing America's problem of inner city violence and poverty.

I'm genuinely unaware of this.

But you're not interested in sincere discourse or actual cures to problems.

I think I asked you 4 separate times in this thread for diseases, or cures to problems. You're being melodramatic.

You want to turn this place into a steaming pile of **** and get your kicks in trolling anyone who will give you an ear. Take your crap back to spurstalk and every other NBA forum you troll.

Jazzfanz's biggest troll asking me to stop trolling. K.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Also, that increase (if we believe the "non-comprehensive" chart) upticks pretty concurrently with the rise of the 24 hour cable news cycle.

Citation?

Can anyone name the shooter from the McDonalds Shooting or the Luby's shooting? I'll bet most can remember the names of a lot of the shooters from Columbine forward. Stop memorializing these guys in the media. Stop trying to "understand" why they did what they did. If someone grabs a gun and shoots 5 people they will be known by all of America, even if it is as a villain. Stop giving those people that. . .

On this of course I agree. But this is simply one factor of many that need to be addressed in response to mass shootings.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

BTW, while I'm providing statistics that show the problem with violence (and gun violence) in the US, I'm skeptical that gun control will make a fundamental difference. Like I, and others, pointed out, the US leads the worlds in most kinds of murders, not just gun violence. Since guns are the easiest way to kill someone, banning guns might reduce the rate a bit, but it won't solve any underlying problem. Also, the evidence that liberals tend to cite in support of gun control is sketch. For example, Australia banned guns in the mid 90s (often cited example), and experienced a drop in gun violence. But they had MINUSCULE rate of gun violence even when guns were readily available!

I don't know, man. The US has a deeper problem, and gun control is a bandaid solution.

I don't think that anyone actually believes that reasonable, prudent gun control measures will wipe out gun violence. What we do think, however, is that it will reduce it at the margin, without eliminating anyone law abiding citizen's rights to owning guns (although not all forms of weaponry). The projected benefits is reduced loss of life and injury at a de minimus cost to gun, or would be, gun owners.

That a public policy does not solve a policy problem is not reason to argue against it--very, very few public problems lend themselves to being solved by a single policy. The question is whether the projected benefits exceed the projected costs. I believe they do, but ultimately I suppose it is an empirical question.

The problem is that we cannot discuss rationally even the most reasonable/prudent/measured policy because then the NRA and its legions of irrational gun nuts start yelling 'slippery slope' at the top of their lungs, and next thing you know, a very measured policy to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill becomes a nefarious government scheme to enslave the American population and impose Nazi-style tyranny on them.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Extremely high number of available firearms

Poor mental health laws, resources and help

Inner city crime

Poorly written state laws (Stand your ground in FL for example)

American culture of self reliance

Redneck assholes that boast about shooting anyone they don't like

Current culture of no surrender and no compromise in politics

Bad CC regs/laws

Glamorization of gun violence in movies, literature and music in America

There is no smoking barrel reason why. There are several issues that all contribute to the gun violence.

It's not like America is the only country with inner city crime, action movies, crazy people, or nationalist.

The biggest reason is the ease of gun access, clearly.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I don't think that anyone actually believes that reasonable, prudent gun control measures will wipe out gun violence. What we do think, however, is that it will reduce it at the margin, without eliminating anyone law abiding citizen's rights to owning guns (although not all forms of weaponry). The projected benefits is reduced loss of life and injury at a de minimus cost to gun, or would be, gun owners.

That a public policy does not solve a policy problem is not reason to argue against it--very, very few public problems lend themselves to being solved by a single policy. The question is whether the projected benefits exceed the projected costs. I believe they do, but ultimately I suppose it is an empirical question.

The problem is that we cannot discuss rationally even the most reasonable/prudent/measured policy because then the NRA and its legions of irrational gun nuts start yelling 'slippery slope' at the top of their lungs, and next thing you know, a very measured policy to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill becomes a nefarious government scheme to enslave the American population and impose Nazi-style tyranny on them.

could not have said it better myself.

 

[Siro]

It's not like America is the only country with inner city crime, action movies, crazy people, or nationalist.

The biggest reason is the ease of gun access, clearly.

Then why does the US lead in knife homicide? Why do states like Utah have low rates of gun violence?

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I don't agree fish, if they legalize drugs it would end so many issues at hand, prison population would decrease, drug cartel mafias would become obsolete, and people would actually be more interested in doing research on drugs if they knew they could use them if they wanted to. I think it would encourage a more responsible consumption, not more consumption.

Yep, agree 100%, or close to it. The cartels would not become obsolete--they have too much invested to disappear--but would diversify into other areas, or would go legit in supply drugs through the legal pipeline, or something else.

Our drug policy is a proven failure, makes one wonder how much evidence is required before we are willing to stop a failed policy?

 

[Stoked]

Why isn't there a tons of guns flowing into Canada and England then?

Neither one of them have nearly the border issues that America has. Horrible comparison.

 

[Stoked]

What rights and privileges are there with gun ownership? Im not a gun owner so I dont know what else there is to lose.

Would a certification or training program you must attend be considered infringement on rights? Personally, I would like to train people to
properly handle guns starting at a very early age. We dont have to run away from guns. They arent going away,
and dont have to. In europe kids can drink beer, and wine at 16. There seems to be a different attitude towards drinking. We dont run away
from it, we accept it, and even embrace it. At the end of HS at age 16 the teens take crates of beer to the center of town and drink together. Its quite
shocking for Americans to see this. Maybe if guns were seen as something to enjoy, but responsibly we could educate more people. Teaching people how to be
really profincent in gun use, and safety. Its something that we aspire to, its not something that just falls in our laps without any warning. A training program that
requires someone to fully grasp what they are holding in their hands, and how to properly use it. Obviously this kind of goes away from the thinking of taking away
guns, but properly arming the millions of people with them.

I mean what other rights would need to be violated along the way to have a gun free society on the level of say England.

What would need to be done to get from point A (Current gun laden American society) to point B (current relatively gun free America society).

Simply outlawing the Future selling of guns isn't enough. Will there be warrantless search and seizure? What else would need to be done? House to house searches?

 

[Hotdog]

If you had the decency for courteous discourse you would simply ask this question instead of attaching implications and pejoratives to it several times. In fact, as a long time member you are well aware that I am the biggest advocate here of curing America's problem of inner city violence and poverty. But you're not interested in sincere discourse or actual cures to problems. You want to turn this place into a steaming pile of **** and get your kicks in trolling anyone who will give you an ear. Take your crap back to spurstalk and every other NBA forum you troll.

Well said.

Love it!!

 

[Siro]

I mean what other rights would need to be violated along the way to have a gun free society on the level of say England.

What would need to be done to get from point A (Current gun laden American society) to point B (current relatively gun free America society).

Simply outlawing the Future selling of guns isn't enough. Will there be warrantless search and seizure? What else would need to be done? House to house searches?

Hypothetically speaking, the government can institute a buy-back program, and outlaw resale of guns. Eventually, the number of guns will be greatly diminished.

 

[fishonjazz]

It's not like America is the only country with inner city crime, action movies, crazy people, or nationalist.

The biggest reason is the ease of gun access, clearly.

Seems pretty obvious to me