Public land issues

[babe]

The problem is crooked politicians backed and shielded by the LDS church. And that if these public lands are transferred they well be destroyed before anything can be done about it and holding the individuals accountable after the fact does nothing to restore destroyed wilderness.

So your concern about land is fairly local.

In global terms I am looking at bigger players. In my view, the LDS Church has sought to align itself with the bigger players.
That means we actually agree in principle.

 

[Gameface]

So your concern about land is fairly local.

In global terms I am looking at bigger players. In my view, the LDS Church has sought to align itself with the bigger players.
That means we actually agree in principle.

I care about Utah's wilderness on a local very personal level. I'm not LDS but my ancestors (and my extended family) were(are). I was born here, my father was borne here, his parents were born here. This is my home. I don't want idiot, corrupt, slime balls ruining it. The feds are not an immediate threat. Our local slime balls are.

 

[Deleted member 848]

An automated response based on pre-programmed paradigms that disregards all the facts of this specific matter. Brought to you by someone who cannot believe humans are materialist automatons.

a total haymaker. lol.

 

[babe]

I care about Utah's wilderness on a local very personal level. I'm not LDS but my ancestors (and my extended family) were(are). I was born here, my father was borne here, his parents were born here. This is my home. I don't want idiot, corrupt, slime balls ruining it. The feds are not an immediate threat. Our local slime balls are.

So the meaningful difference between us is in the information base we accept.
I don't accept that Swallow or Ken Ivory represent official LDS authoiyies' interests at all. I know him, and I knoe central figures in LDS interests.

LDS power has largely gone with Rockefeller and London power brokers for a hundred years and counting. Key players are CFR-affiliated, the LDS are in the WCC and will track with the UN program as closely as they dare, hoping not to trigger "apostasy" in the membership.

Swallow and other ultra.conservatives are just fools whom LDS authorities mostly despise or loathe.

It makes a story line the liberals love though, and the Trib shamelessly plays that tune, though they attend the same insider CFR affiliated programs the LDS leaders attend.

I know Krn Ivory as an attorney who didn't care to really defend his client in a case involving a prominent LDS family dynasty, or take on a Vegas law firm he once worked for, a corrupt outfit associated with pro I ent deems. Yes, he knows how to work the ropes to spring BLM public lands loose to the right developers.

Ivory and Swallow are not above doing that, but they are not specifically aiding LDS interests so far as I know.

Well, unless Harry Reid is. . .

 

[babe]

An automated response based on pre-programmed paradigms that disregards all the facts of this specific matter. Brought to you by someone who cannot believe humans are materialist automatons.

You mean like conceited materialist dogmatists?

Who wouldn't even get the insult associated with devoutly believing a newspaper owned by Chase Bank?

 

[Siro]

You mean like conceited materialist dogmatists?

Who wouldn't even get the insult associated with devoutly believing a newspaper owned by Chase Bank?

Makes sense. Newspaper information should be instantly dismissed without a second thought. A couple of inbred dimwits barking about laughable conspiracies on Youtube? That demands hundreds of hours of serious contemplation.

 

[babe]

Makes sense. Newspaper information should be instantly dismissed without a second thought. A couple of inbred dimwits barking about laughable conspiracies on Youtube? That demands hundreds of hours of serious contemplation.

Yep. Instant dismissals are your style, not mine.
those Aussie conspiracists looked carefully at all the mainstream news footage, and noticed that the wood tables were overturned and smashed after the bomb had already exploded.

You wouldn't even look at the material.

I checked the original footage to make sure those Aussies did't alter the TV broadcast footage.

They did not, so the most obvious "conspiracy theory" at least proved untrue.

 

[Dr. Jones]

While we work the slather over crooked politicians, we still discuss a state that has the third most percentage of public lands in the United States.
Not suggesting that means we shouldn't care, but there is corruption everywhere, period. Can it be stopped? Nope, not really.

I would suggest Utah has done pretty damn good considering its peers.

Take a breath and be proud of what Utah HAS done.. then get back at the good fight.

I think it's atrociously silly that anyone makes this a R vs D thing. Totally dumb. Stick dems in office for the last 50 years and what do you think would be better today? How much less corruption? No Swallows? How do you know? It's just dumbassery.

Stick to facts not labels or you'll never accomplish ****.

 

[one eye]

While we work the slather over crooked politicians, we still discuss a state that has the third most percentage of public lands in the United States.
Not suggesting that means we shouldn't care, but there is corruption everywhere, period. Can it be stopped? Nope, not really.

I would suggest Utah has done pretty damn good considering its peers.

Take a breath and be proud of what Utah HAS done.. then get back at the good fight.

I think it's atrociously silly that anyone makes this a R vs D thing. Totally dumb. Stick dems in office for the last 50 years and what do you think would be better today? How much less corruption? No Swallows? How do you know? It's just dumbassery.

Stick to facts not labels or you'll never accomplish ****.

I'm not really sure what side you are for, you seem to be pretty in the middle on the subject. This state does have a lot of public land.... And it's great. If their wasn't so much public land our state officials would have sold it, developed it, or destroyed it for greedy interests. Utah is good at economic development sure, but they are terrible at conservation. They are terrible at seeing anything but greed. Our politicians can only find dollar signs in our amazing resources in this state, to me they mean more than that. I realize it isn't a full Democratic or Republican thing, but no democrats support it and very few republicans oppose it, this issue lies largely along party lines, there's exceptions sure.

I don't care what Utah HAS done, I care about what they are doing and plan on doing. Just because they've done good on some issues does not mean they get a pass on spending tens of millions of dollars to steal public lands from 320 million Americans that are equal owners. Public lands are doomed if greedy politicians get to call the shots and it's a cold dead hands issue for me. Look at the Wasatch front, all land has is economic value. Hundreds of thousands of acres of vital wildlife habitat winter range have been bulldozed over and lost forever. Homes have been built higher than they ever should have. Thank god the forest service line is saving some of what's left. I get we are going to grow, but we can find ways to grow while preserving our wildlife habitat, wild places, and important natural resources our state has.

A big problem is as a society we have become to set apart from these issues. The majority of our public cares about our mountains, our wetlands, our wildlife and wild places, but they don't understand the issues they face, the complications we create, and are disconnected from those resources. I'm not an environmentalist by any means but I am a conservationist and a hunter. I understand these places and am much closer connected to these lands than the politicians pushing forward an agenda to sale and strip whatever profit they can from them. They don't understand how important these lands are to our wildlife, our economy, and our quality of life. We along with our wildlife cannot afford to lose these public lands. I'm sorry but worthless peace of paper to me, aren't worth more than a bugling bull elk, a mule deer, a bighorn sheep, a flock of ducks or geese, or just the opportunity to go to a place that isn't surrounded with people and smog. Theodore Roosevelt was one of the greats and contributed so much to this country and the world with these public lands he helped create and the idea of conservation he embraced. I won't stand by and let greedy politicians play games with my money and public land they should have nothing to do with.

Here's a few quotes from Roosevelt as it pertained to the future and the obstacles he knew we would face:

"Wildlife and it's habitat cannot speak, so we must and we will."

"Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance."

These are important places to us and our wildlife, and I will stand up for these places and there futures. Future generation should not look back at us and see us as the generation who sold and destroyed one of the best treasures our country has. Vote those for this stupid idea out, and tell congress to fund conservation at the level it should be, because 1% on an industry that returns $646 billion back to economy simply isn't cutting it. Is pretty damn easy to make the federal managers look bad when you vote to cut their budgets constantly. The department of the interior (BLM,USFWS) is still operating on the same spending power as it was 20 years ago.

 

[babe]

So OneEye, let's write a book together.

I'll be the other eye. Maybe we can develop some depth perception.

 

[babe]

So, I really had a childhood, in St. George, Utah. I was the "babe" of eleven children my mother was raising alone, with my dad gone off to be a honcho in the military industrial complex, hobnobbing with former Nazi scientists and such.

My mom was a pathetic doormat anybody could just walk all over, but she did the laundry and prepared the meals, and made sure we had our pants on. I think we were all pretty high on the narcissistic/sociopathic scales, but we were the valedictorians of our classes and such, and most got the Ph.D. or lawyer/CPA basics.

From the time I was 4, I found my path in life. . . . right out the back door, through the fence, and up on the Red Hill. I learned not to tell my mom where I was going because she would worry needlessly about her babe scampering over the redrock cliffs and such, and it would be hours before she realized I was not just digging in the downwind nuclear sand behind the barn.

I detested the houses built on the side of the Black Hill west of town, scaring the black surface and displaying the red sediments underneath. Why let people build houses there. . . . Dr. Jones. . . developers . . . . always building houses right in my favorite clumps of rocks or Brigham Tea scrub.

I worshiped the Pine Valley Mountains. . . Signal Peak. . . too. I used to scamper right up the face of it, and climb the scrubby wind-shaped pine on the top so I could see everything in the world. You can see the Beaver area mountains, and Wheeler Peak in Great Basin National Park. . .. and Charleston Peak on the other side of Vegas. You're looking down on Zion's National Park, and the Arizona Strip. You can see Mt. Trumbull and the other mountains rimming the Grand Canyon. . . . and even that sacred mountain on the Hopi Indian Reservation. Well, Kolob and Cedar Mountain are sorta behind the curving ridge of the laccolith to the east, but you can walk a few miles through the alpine meadows along that ridge until you can see them, too.

Here's an idea. . . let's build the houses out south of St. George on the gyp flats, along the Arizona border. Maybe we can plan a community on the Arizona side. Spectacular views from out there, and not on my favorite ridges.

Well, the Red Hill has been set aside and some little nature walks established. But why shouldn't we plan the area so there will still be some significant agriculture? Everybody who owns a spot of land wants to use it in the most economically favorable way.

What we need is actual intelligent development. . . . well, some might not think my idea of that is all that intelligent. But the real battle is between rapacious growth/economic interests, and let's say. . . coin a less obnoxious term for "our" side. . . the Gaia-worshipping Jet-owning Neanderthals who want earth population minimized so they can without encountering trailer trash folk in the woods, conduct their movable orgies where-ever they please. . . .

So here is what I propose as a solution. Revolution.

We kick out the Jet-Set Neaderthals who are the actual robber baron industrialists who have spoiled out planet, and restore concepts of actual human rights, and government answerable to the people. . . .

But it won't be easy. The present regime stays in power by managing the rhetoric so we just fight one another over meaningless terminology. . . .

 

[Dr. Jones]

So OneEye, let's write a book together.

I'll be the other eye. Maybe we can develop some depth perception.

i think you lost him.