CONAN
Well-Known Member
Took you long enough but glad you are in the fold now.
Wow. Cougar fans aren't going to like this......
- Thread starter 7StraightIsGreat
- Start date
Duck Rodgers
Well-Known Member
BYU is ranked ahead of 7 of the 12 Pac 10 schools(Standford/CAL/UCLA/USC/Washington are the 5 higher) in all of the rankings I've seen. They don't have a med school, tis true. But seriously, what the **** does that have to do with athletic conferences? I don't put any weight into the academic part of it. I'm pretty sure academically all of those schools are competing against every school in the country instead of their little football bong circle conferences.
There are a couple of schools that have a problem with Mormons in the Pac 12. That's it. That's the whole BYU and Pac 12 story.
There are a couple of schools that have a problem with Mormons in the Pac 12. That's it. That's the whole BYU and Pac 12 story.
IMO, that played a WAY BIGGER role than the PAC is willing to admit. They'll never admit it was the major reason, but it was. The other reasons were just a nice excuse. Religious discrimination FTW!
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
Seeing that BYU is owned and ran by the LDS church, the Pac 10 would have to be comfortable being partners with the church. Obviously they're not, and I don't see that as a clear-cut case of discrimination. However, I'm sure many of you will disagree.
The LDS church has chosen to put itself out there in regards to some very polarizing issues such as the whole Prop 8 mess. By choosing to invite BYU, the Pac 10 would have put itself in the crosshairs of several social and political debates. Why put your conference through that? Escpecially when the majority of your schools have a strong liberal base that conflicts directly with what BYU is all about.
Some BYU fans already get it, but I'm waiting for the majority of them to wake up and realize that BYU is BYU because of they're strong religious affiliation and a belief system that they're not willing to change/manipulate just in order to appease a bigger conference.
The Pac 10 was well aware of all of this and was smart enough to know that it was never going to be a good fit. Some call it discrimination, I just call it good business sense.
perhaps it was BYU that rebuffed a possible invite because they didn't want to agree to conditions mandated by the Pac 10?
if that possibility has been discussed already, I apologize - I didn't see it.
also, I think some of you are overestimating the idea that BYU has this huge "national following" - - yeah, there are LDS folks across the US, and many of them are going to be BYU fans, but many of them will also be fans of whatever school is in their region or state, or whatever school they personally attended, and at any rate, I think it's probably a pretty small percentage of the population in most other parts of the country other than Utah and a few other areas.
Here's a pie chart showing % of religious affiliation for the midwest:
Mormon is 0.4 % - that's a pretty trivial number compared to the other religions listed.
https://www.religionatlas.org/religion_region/MIDWEST.htm
if that possibility has been discussed already, I apologize - I didn't see it.
also, I think some of you are overestimating the idea that BYU has this huge "national following" - - yeah, there are LDS folks across the US, and many of them are going to be BYU fans, but many of them will also be fans of whatever school is in their region or state, or whatever school they personally attended, and at any rate, I think it's probably a pretty small percentage of the population in most other parts of the country other than Utah and a few other areas.
Here's a pie chart showing % of religious affiliation for the midwest:
Mormon is 0.4 % - that's a pretty trivial number compared to the other religions listed.
https://www.religionatlas.org/religion_region/MIDWEST.htm
this was discussed earlier: https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php/112-Utah-to-the-Pac-10-MWC-to-get-BCS-game/page2
there are links with all kinds of "filters" to determine what schools fall into what categories, I'm not sure where the particular schools you mentioned would fall
just for you Conan, I'll repeat myself - - using this link: https://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/lookup_listings/institution.php
here is how some schools are categorized
see the difference?
for an explanation of some of these terms, use this link:
https://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/descriptions/grad_program.php
(the bottom line is that STEM is a more limited range of PhD programs...)
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Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
perhaps it was BYU that rebuffed a possible invite because they didn't want to agree to conditions mandated by the Pac 10?
if that possibility has been discussed already, I apologize - I didn't see it.
also, I think some of you are overestimating the idea that BYU has this huge "national following" - - yeah, there are LDS folks across the US, and many of them are going to be BYU fans, but many of them will also be fans of whatever school is in their region or state, or whatever school they personally attended, and at any rate, I think it's probably a pretty small percentage of the population in most other parts of the country other than Utah and a few other areas.
Here's a pie chart showing % of religious affiliation for the midwest:
Mormon is 0.4 % - that's a pretty trivial number compared to the other religions listed.
https://www.religionatlas.org/religion_region/MIDWEST.htm
This is going to sound dumb, but I kid you not. I have multiple friends out of state from multiple different states and they as well as their friends like BYU. Every time I ask them why, they always respond to saying something like they like "watching all those white dudes." With that being said, BYU would get a tons of out of state fans to go to every PAC 10 game. There are tons of members in all of the cities that have Universities that I know of, except for WA St, cause I've only been to Spokane.
Duck Rodgers
Well-Known Member
Moe, the US population of Mormons is ~2% of the total population and most of those are in the Far West. I think most that bring up "national fanbase" are doing so in the context of comparison to Utah and a lot of the Pac 12 schools, which they would probably compare very favorably to. But you're right, there is so much variability within groups of populations that it's extremely hard to get a hard number on anything, let alone whom their favorite college football team might be.
But obviously you could apply that anywhere. How many Hispanics have any interest in American football, let alone college football? How many of the population at large? How many in the state of New York? How many people in Los Angeles really give a crap about USC football? Their attendance over the years would tell you conflicting stories. How many people in the Air Force follow Air Force football throughout their life? How many people watch Air Force because they enjoy rooting for the academies? How many college football fans will watch any game that's on T.V. just because it's football? They need a section for fanbases on the census or something.
I think the point is simply that BYU brings enough heads to the table, not that they are Notre Dame.
The problem with BYU is that there are only 2 BCS conferences that BYU could realistically be a part of due to geographical isolation and one of them has no interest in even considering the possibility.
But obviously you could apply that anywhere. How many Hispanics have any interest in American football, let alone college football? How many of the population at large? How many in the state of New York? How many people in Los Angeles really give a crap about USC football? Their attendance over the years would tell you conflicting stories. How many people in the Air Force follow Air Force football throughout their life? How many people watch Air Force because they enjoy rooting for the academies? How many college football fans will watch any game that's on T.V. just because it's football? They need a section for fanbases on the census or something.
I think the point is simply that BYU brings enough heads to the table, not that they are Notre Dame.
The problem with BYU is that there are only 2 BCS conferences that BYU could realistically be a part of due to geographical isolation and one of them has no interest in even considering the possibility.
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my youngest graduated HS in 2008, from a large Chicago suburban school. Of his class, 2 students are attending U of Utah, at least 3 are at Oregon, 2 at Washington, a dozen or so at various California Pac-10 schools, and another 1/2 dozen at either Arizona or ASU. There is nobody at BYU as far as I know, though I believe one or two had considered it - one of whom I know is not Mormon. At any rate, as far as non-Mormons go, given the general tendencies of the college-age population, I think the honor code would be a major impediment to student interest in attending BYU.
I agree with whoever it was who said they wouldn't necessarily call it religious discrimination keeping BYU out of the Pac-10, just reality. And, as noted in the links above, the FACT that it does not match the same criteria for level of research and doctoral programs as the others schools in the Pac 10 (and Big 10) might also be a factor. If the PAC 10 markets itself as a conference of a certain type of schools, then the schools in the conference should match those criteria.
One final thing, I never really thought of BYU as a Mormon school at all until I started reading this message board. If it puts out a good product (sports-wise) people will watch it as much as they'd watch any other school that they didn't have some personal connection too. Those posters who say the sports-viewing public would not watch BYU because it is a Mormon school are being ridiculous.
by the way, for those who didn't look into the link I posted, in the description of graduate programs, STEM refers to Science, Technology, Engineering & Mathematics. That means that advanced studies in disciplines such as Philosophy, Fine Arts, Business & Commerce, Journalism, and the Social Sciences are either not offered at all, or offered in rather insignificant numbers.
SaltyDawg
Well-Known Member
Look at it like this, if the SLC area is 40 minutes away fromt he BYU campus, and not even all the mormons in the SLC area are BYU fans, why on earth would anyone expect all the mormons hundreds, or even thousands of miles away to be BYU fans?
I'd also point out that the PAC 10 schools have no trouble selling football tickets. They don;t care if there are a couple hundred BYU fans that would buy tickets to their games. They are looking for more tv markets. Adding a couple hundred tv viewers in a city of 1 million + people is not significant enough to worry about.
Then you get into the academics where BYU isn't a major research institution, and isn't a memor of the AAU.
It just wasn't worth it for the PAC 10 to consider adding BYU. And as long as they won't play on Sundays, it probably won't be worth it for the Big 12 either.
Chad Feldheimer
Well-Known Member
It all boils down to the student athlete or in college football terms MONEY!
BYU doesn't offer enough big money to the PAC12 so they passed. Seriously. They could have justified all the other reasons if they money was there.
BYU can't play on Sunday... Oh noes?! We'll have to move it to Saturday.. Big deal
BYU are Mormons... So what Baylor has survived in the Big 12 with no problems. Every conference wants Notre Dame and they are a religious school. BYU has had zero problems in the MWC because being Mormon. Not a problem unless you go out of your way to make it a problem.
BYU is not a research institute. blah blah blah. If they were a big money maker they would justify that too.
Moral of the story: Money talks.
BYU doesn't offer enough big money to the PAC12 so they passed. Seriously. They could have justified all the other reasons if they money was there.
BYU can't play on Sunday... Oh noes?! We'll have to move it to Saturday.. Big deal
BYU are Mormons... So what Baylor has survived in the Big 12 with no problems. Every conference wants Notre Dame and they are a religious school. BYU has had zero problems in the MWC because being Mormon. Not a problem unless you go out of your way to make it a problem.
BYU is not a research institute. blah blah blah. If they were a big money maker they would justify that too.
Moral of the story: Money talks.