Move On From Hayward?

[stitches]

Is anyone going to address the question of being okay with settling for a Memphis-esque team that is consistently in the playoffs but never a legitimate title contender? I'm genuinely curious because this seems to be the path we're currently on.

I have a problem with the assumption that this is what this team's ceiling is. Memphis never had the offensive firepower on the wings that we have. If Exum gets anywhere close to where Conley has been I think this team's ceiling is higher than what Memphis achieved. But even if you assume we max at Memphis level, I'd say I'd be OK with it, but would be looking to make a move to make the team better while getting to the playoffs every year and being competitive there.

If you are not OK with it and want superstars we should fire Lindsey and hire Hinkie. That's the best way to get a superstar or two for a small-market team.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The problem is that the system is set up for outliers (superstars) to win championships and there are very, very, very few of those guys to go around. To think that trading Hayward will give you one of those guys is foolish. The Jazz need to figure out a new formula that can beat the outliers.

You get what you get and you don't throw a fit. I'm not saying we should settle for being OK, but you play the cards you are dealt to the best of your ability. Our team says we should go for depth and build based off length and defense. Trading for a super-star is kind of stupid for Utah. Think about every team that has traded for a super-star. They end up sucking or being just ok, and the complaint ends up being "We need another super star but we have no assets to go out and trade for another one because we spent all our assets to get the first one". Some teams like Houston are big enough markets to attract another one in FA, like Dwight Howard, but even then that team still sucked. Utah wouldnt have that luxury unless we lucked out and got a top 5 player who convinced other top players to come to Utah (not happening).

 

[8]

Hayward isn't as good at making contested 30 footers as Lillard is. I think most people's problem with Hayward is that he can't score as well on bad shots, or when the defense is locked in, taking away all the options, and has to force smth.

A lot of it is what Cy said also. Jazz fans see more of Hayward than players from other teams. Every premier player looks bad on multiple possessions in every game.

 

[homeytennis]

Hayward isn't as good at making contested 30 footers as Lillard is. I think most people's problem with Hayward is that he can't score as well on bad shots, or when the defense is locked in, taking away all the options, and has to force smth.

A lot of it is what Cy said also. Jazz fans see more of Hayward than players from other teams. Every premier player looks bad on multiple possessions in every game.

What would Gordo and Trey bring us back in trade?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Hayward isn't as good at making contested 30 footers as Lillard is. I think most people's problem with Hayward is that he can't score as well on bad shots, or when the defense is locked in, taking away all the options, and has to force smth.

A lot of it is what Cy said also. Jazz fans see more of Hayward than players from other teams. Every premier player looks bad on multiple possessions in every game.

Nearly every team's forum has some section clamoring to trade their best player because "he cant get it done". Bruh there are even people on Spurs Talk who are convinced Kahwi can't be a #1 option.

 

[idiot]

From Marc Stein's Twitter:

Utah, sources say, is telling interested teams Gordon Hayward is unavailable. Ditto for Milwaukee with Jabari Parker and Khris Middleton.

Story going online details Boston's thwarted attempts to trade for Jimmy Butler, Gordon Hayward or either Jabari Parker or Khris Middleton.

Edit: didn't notice already a new thread on this.

 

[karl malone]

The problem is that the system is set up for outliers (superstars) to win championships and there are very, very, very few of those guys to go around. To think that trading Hayward will give you one of those guys is foolish. The Jazz need to figure out a new formula that can beat the outliers.

Absolutely agree. I don't believe that trading Hayward will necessarily get us one of those guy I but I do believe that we have a better chance of doing so by dealing him. I'm not sure that there is another formula capable of beating the outliers, personally I don't see the DET approach working in an NBA in which you must complete against multiple superstars.

I think I hope are on that path but we have more depth and better all around talent. Our peak year with our current roster is a better starting 5 than those Memphis teams imo, we have a higher ceiling. I think it is a viable and great option for Utah to go that route. I think the best we can hope for is getting into the top 4 in the west maybe even 2 or 3 seed and hope that we play well or the chips fall the right way and we can make a run. Injuries happen, matchups change things and things can change. Even Memphis had a small chance at winning it all their best years if things worked out a little better. Timing is everything teams have won that were not a top 1 or 2 seed.

I agree with the general premise but would prefer not to rely on timing & luck to win a championship (although all teams do so to some extent).

I have a problem with the assumption that this is what this team's ceiling is. Memphis never had the offensive firepower on the wings that we have. If Exum gets anywhere close to where Conley has been I think this team's ceiling is higher than what Memphis achieved. But even if you assume we max at Memphis level, I'd say I'd be OK with it, but would be looking to make a move to make the team better while getting to the playoffs every year and being competitive there.

If you are not OK with it and want superstars we should fire Lindsey and hire Hinkie. That's the best way to get a superstar or two for a small-market team.

I agree that our ceiling is higher than that of Memphis's, I was only referring to the previous poster's example of a team who consistently makes the playoffs without being legitimate championship contenders. As of right now, I see this team's ceiling to be that of OKC (multiple WCF appearances & possibly a finals appearance if everything breaks in our favor). I could accept that outcome so long as we don't voluntarily settle for it.

As far as firing Lindsey & hiring Hinkie, I don't advocate doing so or believe that my position advocates doing so. I do however believe that Hinkie took the right approach for that franchise (although he certainly took it to the extreme) when considering the current state of the team & it's market size/ability to attract FA's.

IMO DL is in the position to the attempt an accelerated rebuild due to the controllable talent, draft assets, & available cap space at his disposal. I would much prefer to see him attempt to add that next generational talent (regardless of how unlikely that may be) to Exum, Hood, Lyles, & Gobert than I would to see us accept our fate as the next Memphis Grizzlies (or whoever) while willingly resigning ourselves to the fact that we have virtually no chance at ever winning a championship.