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Cavs and Celtics Battling for Butler

Ron Mexico said:
If Boston gets Butler and has room for Hayward I think that greatly lowers our chances of keeping him. The only thing we would have going for us is that Hayward probably doesnt want to be 4th fiddle and probably does not want to play with IT. But he might sacrifice that to be on a team that might push Cavs and GS.

The other thing that might be going for us is that Blake Griffin would probably be a better fit for that team. Especially if they keep Crowder and Jaylen Brown. Those two can hold down the SF spot pretty well. I think a IT, Butler, Crowder, Griffin and Horford is better than IT, Butler, Hayward, Amir or Jerebko and Horford lineup.

If Boston wants Butler and Chicago does want to trade him they will get him. No one can outbid Boston for Butler. I guess I am assuming Chicago is going for a rebuild and not a reload although Boston could offer them parts to do both at the same time. Cavs, Jazz and others cant really offer much except veteran players and late draft picks that are not worth rebuilding with.

Utah could easily counter Boston getting Butler if they get their own player of that quality like PG13, or maybe a couple players like both PG13 or Love and Bledsoe or Lillard. I know some of that might not be possible but Jazz should be very active looking at any all-star level player and making offers and being very aggressive.
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Good points.

If Boston gets Butler, I don't think they take all of the contracts necessary to keep room for Hayward. I think they have $33 in room right now. A max is around $30 right? Chicago won't want Zeller. They would take Crowder, Bradley, Smart and/or Brown. How much does Boston sacrifice in terms of roster depth?

I'm still holding out hope that the Celtics sign and trade with us if Hayward is going there.

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LoPo said:
Good points.

If Boston gets Butler, I don't think they take all of the contracts necessary to keep room for Hayward. I think they have $33 in room right now. A max is around $30 right? Chicago won't want Zeller. They would take Crowder, Bradley, Smart and/or Brown. How much does Boston sacrifice in terms of roster depth?

I'm still holding out hope that the Celtics sign and trade with us if Hayward is going there.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
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What is the last example of a sign and trade? I thought they do not happen any more with the new CBA. Has one happened in the last two years since the new rules took effect?
 
I'm not 100% sure Hayward would want to play with Butler and IT... I think he'd get overshadowed. I think he'd be fine playing third fiddle to Steph and KD, but not sure on those guys.

Theyd be good... I think he's crazy to leave Gobert... I think he's the perfect running mate and allows Hayward to shine.
 
LoPo said:
Good points.

If Boston gets Butler, I don't think they take all of the contracts necessary to keep room for Hayward. I think they have $33 in room right now. A max is around $30 right? Chicago won't want Zeller. They would take Crowder, Bradley, Smart and/or Brown. How much does Boston sacrifice in terms of roster depth?

I'm still holding out hope that the Celtics sign and trade with us if Hayward is going there.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
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I Assume the trade would be the #3 pick, Bradley and Zeller which is almost 21 million off of Bostons cap and they only take back 16.4 million. That would leave them with plenty of room to sign a max player outright in FA just fine. Chicago probably does not want Zeller but he is usable and his contract is not that long. They are not getting a better asset to rebuild with than the #3 pick. Plus Bradley is a solid player and Chicago could probably trade both of those players in the future for more assets.

I would be shocked if Boston didnt leave room for a max contract if they make a trade. But I am hoping they dont get Butler or PG13 and/or they prefer Griffin who I think is a bigger need for them than upgrading SF who they have a solid vet and a young player with potential at.
 
LoPo said:
Honestly, you might have something here.

IF the Cavs can get Butler and Love goes somewhere else
AND
the Celtics don't pursue George as a Butler replacement until after the start of free agency
=
PGeorge might be attainable.

If we throw Favors, Diaw, #24, #42 and our 2018 first at them, they might say yes. You never know. The Pacers want this to happen quickly so to avoid a circus.

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I don't think this works simply from the #24/2018 Jazz pick. We could do #30 and or OKC 2018 though.
 
Ron Mexico said:
I Assume the trade would be the #3 pick, Bradley and Zeller which is almost 21 million off of Bostons cap and they only take back 16.4 million. That would leave them with plenty of room to sign a max player outright in FA just fine. Chicago probably does not want Zeller but he is usable and his contract is not that long. They are not getting a better asset to rebuild with than the #3 pick. Plus Bradley is a solid player and Chicago could probably trade both of those players in the future for more assets. Horford, Butler, Thomas, Crowder, Brown and Smart alone combine for 69 million. When you add in cap holds for their earlier first round picks that are coming over this year and roster spots, you end up on around 74 million. Hayward could obviously take a pay cut, but this would leave him playing PF full time and Boston in a very tough spot as they would have absolutely no salary to add to their roster to be able to make trades.

I would be shocked if Boston didnt leave room for a max contract if they make a trade. But I am hoping they dont get Butler or PG13 and/or they prefer Griffin who I think is a bigger need for them than upgrading SF who they have a solid vet and a young player with potential at.
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No. There is no way for the Celtics to trade for Butler while keeping max cap room without gutting their team.
 
Ron Mexico said:
I Assume the trade would be the #3 pick, Bradley and Zeller which is almost 21 million off of Bostons cap and they only take back 16.4 million. That would leave them with plenty of room to sign a max player outright in FA just fine. Chicago probably does not want Zeller but he is usable and his contract is not that long. They are not getting a better asset to rebuild with than the #3 pick. Plus Bradley is a solid player and Chicago could probably trade both of those players in the future for more assets.

I would be shocked if Boston didnt leave room for a max contract if they make a trade. But I am hoping they dont get Butler or PG13 and/or they prefer Griffin who I think is a bigger need for them than upgrading SF who they have a solid vet and a young player with potential at.
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No. There is no way for the Celtics to trade for Butler while keeping max cap room without gutting their team. Horford, Butler, Thomas, Crowder, Brown and Smart alone combine for 69 million. When you add in cap holds for their earlier first round picks that are coming over this year and roster spots, you end up on around 74 million. Hayward could obviously take a pay cut, but this would leave him playing PF full time and Boston in a very tough spot as they would have absolutely no salary to add to their roster to be able to make trades.
 
The only way for the Celtics to get both Butler and Hayward without totally gutting their team, is to renounce Zeller, Olynyk and Johnson, sign Hayward to a near-max deal and then trade Bradley + #3 for Butler. This relies on everything playing out in favor of the Celtics. If any other team forces their hand by making them trade for Butler ahead of FA, they are going to have a very hard time getting cap space for Gordon.
 
Avery said:
Just reduce the league to four teams if everybody wants to play Avengers.
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Well, there are too many teams. It was a mistake for Stern to create as many new teams as he did, because it dilutes the talent available for the league. Why wouldn't players seek to subvert parity when the league is spread so thin anyway?
 
Hedda Gambler said:
No. There is no way for the Celtics to trade for Butler while keeping max cap room without gutting their team. Horford, Butler, Thomas, Crowder, Brown and Smart alone combine for 69 million. When you add in cap holds for their earlier first round picks that are coming over this year and roster spots, you end up on around 74 million. Hayward could obviously take a pay cut, but this would leave him playing PF full time and Boston in a very tough spot as they would have absolutely no salary to add to their roster to be able to make trades.
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They are trading the pick so that leaves them at 69 million. That is why I said Griffin is a better for Boston since they have Crowder and brown. That leaves them with plenty of room for a max contact. Yes they would have to fill out with some min contacts but that is a good team.

I would guess if they go after Hayward they will be looking to trade Crowder for a PF.
 
Ron Mexico said:
They are trading the pick so that leaves them at 69 million. That is why I said Griffin is a better for Boston since they have Crowder and brown. That leaves them with plenty of room for a max contact. Yes they would have to fill out with some min contacts but that is a good team.

I would guess if they go after Hayward they will be looking to trade Crowder for a PF.
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I`m not talking about the 3rd pick this year, but first round picks from previous years that are coming over this year, like Ante Zizic. The 6 players mentioned above are not enough to round out a full squad. For salary cap purposes, every team needs a minimum of 12 players. The Celtics in this scenario only have 6 and will therefore have 6 cap holds. Zizic alone will count as $1,15 million having been selected with the 23rd pick last year. Yabusele will count for $1,6 million if he wants to come over. Even if they were to renounce all these draft pickt, the minimum wage is about $800.000, meaning that the minimum cap hold these 6 roster space will cause is just under $5 million.

Again - there is no way for the Celtics to first trade for Butler and then create maximum cap space this summer if they want to keep Horford, Thomas, Brown, Smart and Crowder.
 
If I'm Boston, I take Hayward over Griffen and it's not even close. I always choose the wing over the big because the NBA runs on wings when it counts the most. In addition to that, next year's big man draft class is incredible. Something like 8 of the top 10 prospects are either a PF or C. This is the year of the PG and next year is the year of the big.

But ideally if I'm Boston, I try to get Griffen and Hayward or Hayward and Butler THIS SUMMER. Why? Because Boston is going to trade IT midseason or let him walk next summer. If they have two other stars on the team, then Ainge won't get blasted/questioned. If they just have Hayward, it would look like a lateral move to have him and lose IT. IT will want $35+ per year from Boston next summer. Considering his size, eventual decline in athleticism, etc., Ainge is too smart to lock him into a Conley type contract when he has so many assets for the future and Horford already on a very large contract.
 
RJF said:
Reports are that LeBrons wife wants to stay in LA and Lakers management is hoping that convinces him to go that route. Maybe that's why Cleveland is pushing so hard here.
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Were you born in a got damn dumpster? Reports are that LeBrons wife LOVES Cleveland an that was always one reason everyone thought he'd return.
 
Hedda Gambler said:
I`m not talking about the 3rd pick this year, but first round picks from previous years that are coming over this year, like Ante Zizic. The 6 players mentioned above are not enough to round out a full squad. For salary cap purposes, every team needs a minimum of 12 players. The Celtics in this scenario only have 6 and will therefore have 6 cap holds. Zizic alone will count as $1,15 million having been selected with the 23rd pick last year. Yabusele will count for $1,6 million if he wants to come over. Even if they were to renounce all these draft pickt, the minimum wage is about $800.000, meaning that the minimum cap hold these 6 roster space will cause is just under $5 million.

Again - there is no way for the Celtics to first trade for Butler and then create maximum cap space this summer if they want to keep Horford, Thomas, Brown, Smart and Crowder.
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I think they may move Smart and 3 for 5 and 10. Not sure how much that helps or hurts their cause. The more I think about it the more I think they should go after Griffin instead of Hayward. Hayward's best position is the 3... they have Crowder and Brown there and are looking at Jackson and Tatum. Some of those guys can switch to the 4 and Hayward can play some 2, but they have Bradley there. I think if they get Butler Crowder or Bradley are in the deal and maybe Smart.
 
Hedda Gambler said:
I`m not talking about the 3rd pick this year, but first round picks from previous years that are coming over this year, like Ante Zizic. The 6 players mentioned above are not enough to round out a full squad. For salary cap purposes, every team needs a minimum of 12 players. The Celtics in this scenario only have 6 and will therefore have 6 cap holds. Zizic alone will count as $1,15 million having been selected with the 23rd pick last year. Yabusele will count for $1,6 million if he wants to come over. Even if they were to renounce all these draft pickt, the minimum wage is about $800.000, meaning that the minimum cap hold these 6 roster space will cause is just under $5 million.

Again - there is no way for the Celtics to first trade for Butler and then create maximum cap space this summer if they want to keep Horford, Thomas, Brown, Smart and Crowder.
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I'm looking at the numbers different from you then. They easily can trade for Butler and have room for a Max deal. That is what they are setting up for and that is their goal.

Trading for Butler clears up cap space for them. Since they are trading over 21 million in cap space and only taking back 18.
 
Ron Mexico said:
I'm looking at the numbers different from you then. They easily can trade for Butler and have room for a Max deal. That is what they are setting up for and that is their goal.

Trading for Butler clears up cap space for them. Since they are trading over 21 million in cap space and only taking back 18.
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In cases like these there are only the right and the wrong way of looking at things. In this case you are wrong. Zeller`s salary for cap purposes is 0 next season. He is unguaranteed and they have to wave him to make max cap space. That they can use him as a salary filler in a trade with his unguaranteed salary does not alter this at all. If they trade Zeller, Bradley and #3 for Butler, they are sending out just over $14 million in 2017/18-salary and taking back 18,7.
 
Hedda Gambler said:
In cases like these there are only the right and the wrong way of looking at things. In this case you are wrong. Zeller`s salary for cap purposes is 0 next season. He is unguaranteed and they have to wave him to make max cap space. That they can use him as a salary filler in a trade with his unguaranteed salary does not alter this at all. If they trade Zeller, Bradley and #3 for Butler, they are sending out just over $14 million in 2017/18-salary and taking back 18,7.
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Can somebody find me a link where it is 100% certain that Zeller's $8 million for next year is not guaranteed? I've seen sites saying it is and others saying it isn't. I want to see an article recently talking about it or the article when he signed it.
 
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