Kanter and Nike Hoop Summit History

[jimmy eat jazz]

No, you have not succeeded because your never had any meaningful or coherent point to begin with. At least attempt to start exhibiting enough intellectual capabilities to understand the conclusions that are to be made from the data I provided.



This is true, but completely irrelevant. International team is the only one that is playing against good competition. That's the whole point here. This game is the only one where Kanter played against potentially decent competition. The whole idea behind the numbers here is that doing well against potentially decent competition in one game doesn't mean you will go far. NEARLY EVERYONE from that group who had good games against top HS talent didn't qualify to be NBA 3d stringers, even though they did better than many of their counterparts, who later became great NBA players.



Why don't you start thinking a little for a change? How is the fact that good performance against top HS talent not translating anywhere near NBA success absurd? You are just being ridiculous here and ignore a valuable finding. This is not statistical analysis to determine probability of Kanter's success in NBA. But this is a strong indication that doing well against decent competition comprised of top HS talent in that game means nothing at all. It does not even mean you are likely to make NBA roster. Given this is the only meaningful accomplishment Kanter has, I have concerns about risk/reward proposition of him at #3. Really, you don't need to be that thick, it is a basic point that you fail to grasp.

This reminds me of last year, when I was pointing out to you that Haywards accomplishments were significant (leading his team from unranked to ranker as a freshman and to #2 rank as a sophomore while putting up good numbers), and you kept dismissing them, using similar lingo. Now we have similar story, except I am pointing out to you lack of accomplishments, and it looks like your absorptive capacity needs a lot of improvement.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but your point appears to be as simple as this:

1. Doing well in the Nike Hoops Summit game is, by itself, not a particularly accurate indicator of future NBA success. This is seen by the large number of anomalies (people who did well in the game but who did not have successful NBA careers) that make extrapolating from this single game to the NBA a risky proposition.

Did I more or less get the main point?

 

[Borat]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but your point appears to be as simple as this:

1. Doing well in the Nike Hoops Summit game is, by itself, not a particularly accurate indicator of future NBA success. This is seen by the large number of anomalies (people who did well in the game but who did not have successful NBA careers) that make extrapolating from this single game to the NBA a risky proposition.

Did I more or less get the main point?

Absolutely

 

[gregbroncs]

I showed you about 15 guys who had good games against top HS guys, and never made it to NBA. What else do you want?

Why is 15 points a good game? It's average at best. What we want is a little perspective. You don't seem to have any.

What I want is a guy with the potential to score 30 points against real competition. Who also happens to have room to grow. Who has the size and body to play his most likely NBA position.

I've said it before in this thread. Kanter has most of the things I would want. The problem is there is not a lot to go on because of his age and that he played in a country most of us are unfamiliar with. If this was the only thing scouts and other's were basing their opinion on it would be a problem. I seriously doubt that it is.

Is Kanter sure to be a better player than Knight or Walker or even Biyombo? No he's not. Is he the safest pick out of that group? Probably not. Hell if the Jazz take Biyombo I would not really be upset. If they take Knight I won't exactly be happy, but will give it time like I did last year with Hayward. I would love to get either Williams or Irving over Kanter. But so would most everybody else and that's why they are unlikely to be there at 3.

The point is Colton is correct. You are acting like having a good game in this game is sure to make him a bust. Almost every one of the other player's you listed were not placed in any mock's drafts as high as Kanter is in every single one of them right now. That is not because of this one game only. But also based on his size, strength, other abilities as well as his play in his former league. You call it a crappy league but that does not mean he could not be evaluated based on his play. He was also extremely young while playing at that time.

 

[Borat]

Why is 15 points a good game? It's average at best.

Not in this game. But whatever. Use any indicator you want to derive at the population of International guys who you think had good games against top US HS competition. You will get the same result: nearly all of them did not even crack NBA. And no, I am not saying because Kanter did well, he will be a bust. But based on the evidence, I don't think it is wise from risk management perspective to look at this game and use it as a main factor to project someone top 3.

 

[Borat]

If Kanter had scored 15 pts in the game, that would be much more meaningful.

Use any criteria you want to define who you think did well against top HS guys. The conclusion is the same: doing well means nothing when it comes to NBA success or even making NBA 3d string roster.

No one is arguing that it automatically does. It's just ONE data point which should be analyzed when evaluating him. But what you seem almost to be arguing is that having success in that game somehow proves that Kanter is going to be a bust.

That "ONE data point" is the centerpiece of entire evaluation. The only time Kanter played against somewhat decent competition. If you put this "ONE data point" in perspective, as I just did, you are left with nothing to project the guy top 3. That does not mean he is bust, but it does make him a HUGE risk at top 3, without appropriate reward justification. Much like a lottery ticket.

 

[Borat]

Borat, I don't think all the Kanter supporters are on his bandwagon as a result of the NHS. I think that is definitely something that we all looked at and were wowed by his numbers. BTW, one of the things that gets lost in the shuffle of that game was the fact that the kid only played 22 min. Anyways, back to my point, I would have to say that the reason that most of us like Kanter is that he looks and feels like a guy that is going to translate. This is why I am very much against Valanciunas. Sure he put up good numbers in Europe, but the guy just does not look like he's going to translate very well when he comes over (I could easily be wrong). I think when people see Kanter they see a 6'11" guy who's got a great body, good work ethic (as evidenced by his combine numbers) looks to be an above average to elite rebounder, has a very solid jumpshot out to 20 ft, and has a decent low post game. Combine all that with the fact that he's 19 and it doesn't seem too far fetched to see him going early in the lottery. Do we know he's going to be great? No. But the only result of him not playing last year is the fact that he is now harder to evaluate.

You bring up interesting point about Jonas V. That's one thing that makes me feel better about Kanter: the fact he compared well against Jonas in juniors, and Jonas is doing OK in senior League now. However, this could be very easily attributed to the fact Jonas developed well, while getting playing time against tough competition, while Kanter not only didn't play for a year, he couldn't even practice with the team for nearly all year. But the thing here is, Jonas is nowhere near a star or impact player in Europe, like Dirk, Peja, AK, Parker, Gasol were at young age before they were picked. He is a decent guy, gets 7ppg, struggles on defense, fouls way too much. He does not dominate, like the other guys I mentioned did. So, Jonas is nowhere near a solid #3 pick either.

 

[somebody]

Per 48 stats for Nike Hoop Summit players that scored 25 points or more:

30+ points

Wayne Ellington   59.52 pts (68.75 FG%),  5.76 reb ( 0.00 off)
Tyler Hansbrough  59.52 pts (66.67 FG%), 19.20 reb (17.28 off)
Casey Jacobson    53.14 pts (71.43 FG%),  1.71 reb ( 0.00 off)
Dirk Nowitzki     52.80 pts (50.00 FG%), 22.40 reb ( 3.20 off) *int
Enes Kanter       68.00 pts (61.90 FG%), 26.00 reb (16.00 off) *int

25-30 points

Harrison Barnes   44.68 pts (52.94 FG%), 11.59 reb ( 3.31 off)
Josh Smith        39.27 pts (66.67 FG%),  8.73 reb ( 1.45 off)
Al Harrington     39.00 pts (52.63 FG%), 13.50 reb ( 4.50 off)

A few thoughts:

-Only Nowitzki and Kanter were on the international team. Judging by the USA's 10-3 record against the world team, it is probably safe to assume that the USA players are generally better than the international players, and that, as a result, a player would probably have an easier time achieving good stats playing for team USA than he would if he were playing for the World team. This makes both Nowitzki's and Kanter's stats that much more impressive, because they were playing against the USA, not for the USA. Compare, for example, Wellington's competition with Kanter's competition.

-Tyler Hansbrough scored 15 of his 31 points at the line.

-Nowitzki scored 19 of his 33 points at the line.

-Enes scored 8 of his 34 points at the line.

-Kanter's rebounding in the Euro U18 (27.75 per 48) might not be entirely meaningless.

 

[trigg3r]

Per 48 stats for Nike Hoop Summit players that scored 25 points or more:

30+ points

Wayne Ellington   59.52 pts (68.75 FG%),  5.76 reb ( 0.00 off)
Tyler Hansbrough  59.52 pts (66.67 FG%), 19.20 reb (17.28 off)
Casey Jacobson    53.14 pts (71.43 FG%),  1.71 reb ( 0.00 off)
Dirk Nowitzki     52.80 pts (50.00 FG%), 22.40 reb ( 3.20 off) *int
Enes Kanter       68.00 pts (61.90 FG%), 26.00 reb (16.00 off) *int

25-30 points

Harrison Barnes   44.68 pts (52.94 FG%), 11.59 reb ( 3.31 off)
Josh Smith        39.27 pts (66.67 FG%),  8.73 reb ( 1.45 off)
Al Harrington     39.00 pts (52.63 FG%), 13.50 reb ( 4.50 off)

A few thoughts:

-Only Nowitzki and Kanter were on the international team. Judging by the USA's 10-3 record against the world team, it is probably safe to assume that the USA players are generally better than the international players, and that, as a result, a player would probably have an easier time achieving good stats playing for team USA than he would if he were playing for the World team. This makes both Nowitzki's and Kanter's stats that much more impressive, because they were playing against the USA, not for the USA. Compare, for example, Wellington's competition with Kanter's competition.

-Tyler Hansbrough scored 15 of his 31 points at the line.

-Kanter's rebounding in the Euro U18 (20+ per/35) might not be entirely meaningless.

Someone could also infer that if as you said, the Euro team isn't as good as the US team that Kanter might have been the Euro team's main option offensively which gave him more chances than a US play who was on an offensively stacked team as far as players go. There's arguments for both sides.

 

[somebody]

Someone could also infer that if as you said, the Euro team isn't as good as the US team that Kanter might have been the Euro team's main option offensively which gave him more chances than a US play who was on an offensively stacked team as far as players go. There's arguments for both sides.

It may be true that the World team gave Enes attempts, but everyone gave him rebounds, and the USA defense gave him 61.9 FG%. Also, Harrison Barnes had more FGA than Kanter in that game.

 

[Borat]

It may be true that the World team gave Enes attempts, but everyone gave him rebounds, and the USA defense gave him 61.9 FG%. Also, Harrison Barnes had more FGA than Kanter in that game.

I agree that what Kanter did in this game is impressive. What it doesn't change though is the fact that doing well against US team in this game means absolutely nothing when it comes to NBA success or even making a 3d string on NBA team.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I liked Jacobsen. Minnesota, right? I always loved a similar guy, Jeff Sheppard, from UK more. PKM, are you a Sheppard fan like moi?

Of course, that's a Krazee question. MVP of the 1998 F4 and won a NC. Dude had hops and could shoot the lights out.

 

[somebody]

I agree that what Kanter did in this game is impressive. What it doesn't change though is the fact that doing well against US team in this game means absolutely nothing when it comes to NBA success or even making a 3d string on NBA team.

Apparently, by your logic, a player can score 1,532 points and dunk from half-court in a Nike Hoop Summit (NHS) game and it will mean "absolutely nothing" when it comes to the NBA.

You have to clearly establish, in an objective, non-biased way, why a 1,532 point NHS game would mean something in the NBA and why a 34 point 13 rebound game would not—unless, that is, you really do think a 1,532 point NHS game would mean nothing in the NBA. I assume you do not.