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So Long, Bugs....

the dumbest ****ing thing ever is when opponents of climate change talk about scientists being biased because of their careers being dependent on it existing (lmao, such a reach) and conveniently ignore the much more immense bias of climate-denialism being in large part funded by the fossil fuel industry

Haha, this.

While I’ve changed my tune regarding GW over the years (it’s not as dire as I once thought it might be), the fact remains that it’s real, and even if it’s not “dire” right now, it potentially could/will be if nothing is done. I feel like we are making great headway, despite the opposition/deniers, and feel much less strongly about it these days. Do we still have miles to go before we sleep? Yup, but I’m far from worried.
 
the dumbest ****ing thing ever is when opponents of climate change talk about scientists being biased because of their careers being dependent on it existing (lmao, such a reach) and conveniently ignore the much more immense bias of climate-denialism being in large part funded by the fossil fuel industry

Give the devil their due. To be fair, the scientists are doing it for themselves...and their children, grand children, and further generations down the line.
 
Haha, this.

While I’ve changed my tune regarding GW over the years (it’s not as dire as I once thought it might be), the fact remains that it’s real, and even if it’s not “dire” right now, it potentially could/will be if nothing is done. I feel like we are making great headway, despite the opposition/deniers, and feel much less strongly about it these days. Do we still have miles to go before we sleep? Yup, but I’m far from worried.

did you read the articles on insects recently? I think different aspects of it will come in different waves, but ultimately we need to get our **** together and act now instead of pontificating when the *precise* point of no return is. Ya know?

And I believe you-- I feel like you got that Prius back when no one cared about em.
 
Global warming caused an ice age? I think you mean cooling, lol....



The Little Ice Age implies global COOLING, not global warming. Think, for heaven's sake.

And why are you even bringing up racism?? Do you know how much effect European diseases alone had on the population decline?? Lack of immunity from disease implies racism?? Really?? Are you really making such an asinine claim?? And germ theory of disease was well known in the 17th century? Lol, you are a riot. When the Puritans landed in Boston, they found nobody living at all in the immediate villages, due to the dying in the 1616-1620 time frame, due to European diseases, which affected all the tribes in southeastern New England. Again, you feel that unknowingly spreading disease is racism??

Good grief, you guys are slow at times. You really examined that study closely I see.

I will be less inclined, in the future, to take anything you say seriously, when you make such glaring mistakes, and don't know the difference between cooling and warming.

I was unable to access the MSN article, so don't know if the mistake originated there. But, you both should still know better. A little thought goes a long way. You've given me far less reason to take you seriously on such climate related subjects in the future.

Perhaps based on your rejection of global warming in our present era. Your bias is being broadcast in neon lights.

I found this BBC article to be a good summary of the study's findings. Changes in land use has long been cited as one reason for the onset of what is known as the Little Ice Age. If we fail to look at the actual study, but instead reflexively plug it into our own political warfare involving "climate change", then we are not being very objective at all. Generally speaking, knee jerk reactions are the most biased. This study simply focused on one component of the causes behind the onset and duration of the Little Ice Age, namely the drop in atmospheric CO2. The study included examination of and estimation of agricultural use of land throughout the Americas, not just North America. (But, even here, in North America, there was agriculture on a larger scale then we might assume or imagine. When Verrazano spent 2 weeks anchored in Narragansett Bay, in 1524(he was an Italian explorer sailing for France), he reported the land was cleared from their western shore of Narragansett Bay all the way to at least the present border of Connecticut. Large scale clear cutting by use of fire was practiced by natives in my own region, in other words)

(Unfortunately, this link posts as an audio available at the link, and not the text, so I've posted some of the text directly beneath the link.)



"The team reviewed all the population data it could find on how many people were living in the Americas prior to first contact with Europeans in 1492.

It then assessed how the numbers changed in following decades as the continents were ravaged by introduced disease (smallpox, measles, etc), warfare, slavery and societal collapse.

It's the UCL group's estimate that 60 million people were living across the Americas at the end of the 15th Century (about 10% of the world's total population), and that this was reduced to just five or six million within a hundred years.

The scientists calculated how much land previously cultivated by indigenous civilisations would have fallen into disuse, and what the impact would be if this ground was then repossessed by forest and savannah.

The area is in the order of 56 million hectares, close in size to a country like modern France.

This scale of regrowth is figured to have drawn down sufficient CO₂ that the concentration of the gas in the atmosphere eventually fell by 7-10ppm (that is 7-10 molecules of CO₂ in every one million molecules in the air).

"To put that in the modern context - we basically burn (fossil fuels) and produce about 3ppm per year. So, we're talking a large amount of carbon that's being sucked out of the atmosphere," explained co-author Prof Mark Maslin.

"There is a marked cooling around that time (1500s/1600s) which is called the Little Ice Age, and what's interesting is that we can see natural processes giving a little bit of cooling, but actually to get the full cooling - double the natural processes - you have to have this genocide-generated drop in CO₂."

The drop in CO₂ at the time of the Great Dying is evident in the ice core records from Antarctica.

Air bubbles trapped in these frozen samples show a fall in their concentration of carbon dioxide.

The atomic composition of the gas also suggests strongly that the decline is being driven by land processes somewhere on Earth.

In addition, the UCL team says the story fits with the records of charcoal and pollen deposits in the Americas.

These show the sort of perturbation expected from a decline in the use of fire to manage land, and a big grow-back of natural vegetation.

Ed Hawkins, professor of climate science at Reading University, was not involved in the study. He commented: "Scientists understand that the so-called Little Ice Age was caused by several factors - a drop in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, a series of large volcanic eruptions, changes in land use and a temporary decline in solar activity.

"This new study demonstrates that the drop in CO₂ is itself partly due the settlement of the Americas and resulting collapse of the indigenous population, allowing regrowth of natural vegetation. It demonstrates that human activities affected the climate well before the industrial revolution began."
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One cause among several, in other words, large volcanic eruptions and a decline in solar activity are also known to have played into the onset of the Little Ice Age. The study concentrated on land use changes leading to a drop in CO2. At least report the conclusions accurately, and not through knee jerk political lenses.

And cooling is not the same as warming! The Little Ice Age involved cooling, for heaven's sake. You guys are not doing yourselves any favors mistaking cooling for warming!

It's also recommended that the actual study be examined, and judged on its scientific merits. And this will happen, because it was published in a peer review format. If mistakes in the scientific methodology are evident, they will be highlighted in any rebuttals that may be published in response to the study. And, rather then indulge in our own well established political warfare over what we think the study is saying, we can actually simply read the study and be our own judge, to the best of our ability and our knowledge of the science involved. So, it's open access, and here is the actual study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379118307261

Abstract
Human impacts prior to the Industrial Revolution are not well constrained. We investigate whether the decline in global atmospheric CO2 concentration by 7–10 ppm in the late 1500s and early 1600s which globally lowered surface air temperatures by 0.15∘C, were generated by natural forcing or were a result of the large-scale depopulation of the Americasafter European arrival, subsequent land use change and secondary succession. We quantitatively review the evidence for (i) the pre-Columbian population size, (ii) their per capita land use, (iii) the post-1492 population loss, (iv) the resulting carbon uptake of the abandoned anthropogenic landscapes, and then compare these to potential natural drivers of global carbon declines of 7–10 ppm. From 119 published regional population estimates we calculate a pre-1492 CE population of 60.5 million (interquartile range, IQR 44.8–78.2 million), utilizing 1.04 ha land per capita (IQR 0.98–1.11). European epidemics removed 90% (IQR 87–92%) of the indigenous population over the next century. This resulted in secondary succession of 55.8 Mha (IQR 39.0–78.4 Mha) of abandoned land, sequestering 7.4 Pg C (IQR 4.9–10.8 Pg C), equivalent to a decline in atmospheric CO2 of 3.5 ppm (IQR 2.3–5.1 ppm CO2). Accounting for carbon cycle feedbacks plus LUC outside the Americas gives a total 5 ppm CO2 additional uptake into the land surface in the 1500s compared to the 1400s, 47–67% of the atmospheric CO2 decline. Furthermore, we show that the global carbon budget of the 1500s cannot be balanced until large-scale vegetation regeneration in the Americas is included. The Great Dying of the Indigenous Peoples of the Americas resulted in a human-driven global impact on the Earth System in the two centuries prior to the Industrial Revolution.

So you're saying native Americans caused global warming. Why bring race into this man?
 
So you're saying native Americans caused global warming. Why bring race into this man?

You'll have to explain a little more how I said that, or how I emphasized race. I guess I'm slow and am missing something. Sure, writings by the English and Spanish make it clear racist attitudes toward the peoples they encountered was a factor in relations toward those native peoples. Among the English, the one notable exception was Roger Williams, the founder of the Baptist church in America and ostracized by the Puritan leaders for his belief that the natives in New England had a right to their lands, etc. He wasn't perfect, however. The English also introduced total warfare among the natives by two massacres, the Pequot in 1637, the Narragansett in 1675, in which hundreds of women and children were burned to death. This type of ethic cleansing warfare was unknown among the natives.

Death by lack of immunity to European diseases preceded settlement in the Northeast. European fishermen were working the banks in the Northeast in the mid 1400's, before Columbus even sailed, but the plague of 1616 basically completely wiped out the Massachusett, and greatly reduced the Wampanoag, so the Puritans found the area devoid of native villages in 1630. The Narragansett escaped that decimation by hiding out on the islands in Narragansett Bay, and emerged as the most powerful tribal group as a result. I've often wondered how Verrazano's visit to the Narragansett in 1524 could not have resulted in death by disease, and maybe it did.

This "Great Dying" by disease was not racism. Germ theory for disease was unknown, the Europeans were not saying "let's give them smallpox, it's our best weapon". But they did see this dying as "God's will", clearing the wilderness for the English, and that notion was certainly racist.

At any rate, racism was present among the English and Spanish, less so the French. It was just a natural assumption of these groups of Europeans toward the people they encountered. Disease and warfare that included advanced weaponry on the part of the Europeans led to the decimation of the numbers of people living in the Americas. If this latest study is weak and poorly argued, and not supported by the evidence, so be it.

I just thought NPC D4617 bringing up racism was not really relevant to the argument regarding global cooling, since that racism would have been present anyway, regardless of climate. I did not emphasize race at all, I questioned why racism was relevant. Racism was an obvious component in the settlement of the Americas by the European powers, but not pertinent to the argument made by this Little Ice Age study. Racism, in the attitude of Europeans toward native peoples, seems like an entirely separate subject to me.
 
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So you're saying native Americans caused global warming. Why bring race into this man?

If you feel that a logical analysis on your part can draw that conclusion, based on your reading of that comment, whatever makes you comfortable I guess.

As TroutBum pointed out, it was a novella. My weakness for sure, people prefer sound bites.

A novella to simply point out the Little Ice Age involved cooling.

At any rate, I also stated "If mistakes in the scientific methodology are evident, they will be highlighted in any rebuttals that may be published in response to the study." So it's not like I said this study is irrefutable and proof positive of anything. You infer I brought up race. OK, again, if that's what you infer from all that, fine.
 
Haha, this.

While I’ve changed my tune regarding GW over the years (it’s not as dire as I once thought it might be), the fact remains that it’s real, and even if it’s not “dire” right now, it potentially could/will be if nothing is done. I feel like we are making great headway, despite the opposition/deniers, and feel much less strongly about it these days. Do we still have miles to go before we sleep? Yup, but I’m far from worried.

Pretty much this. I took it at face value back in college, sounded like something worth paying attention to. That was before it got weaponized politically and the fear mongerers came out of the wood works. Then my attitude changed to OFFS GMAFB.

I used to think end of days fear was an American Christian thing, but apparently worrying about the world ending is a universal human trait. Y'all are all freaking wierdos.

At any rate, I've been in environmental for long enough to know that technological advancement is the only way to make meaningful change. You can pay lip service by pushing the "we need to do something" mantra, but at the end of the day you aren't doing a damn thing to help. All these token little things you do to make yourself feel better about who you are don't make a dent, so pat yourselves on the back for getting up in a tissy but not doing anything at all, if it helps you sleep better at night. Technology is the only solution and you can't force it to advance. We can pretend we can with laws, acts, and rules, but the truth is those by and large follow tech advancement, they don't force it.

So sit back and enjoy the ride, and laugh at the silly people preaching Armagheddon.
 
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