Time for a true gutting of the team this offseason.

[Handlogten's Heros]

Royce is PJ Tucker... Royce a little better shooter and better off the bounce. PJ is probably a lot better on defense (in part because he is allowed to use MMA tactics). The numbers are fairly similar... just play him at the 4 Crowder off the bench... get some guard/perimeter help. Maybe Dante stops being ded and becomes good, maybe grayson gets good, maybe our draft pick this year becomes something.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yep.

My frustration stems with falling in love with what was an obviously flawed roster that got hot and deciding to do nothing of substance. Re-upping a guy that had really nothing to do with that success makes the off-season that much more frustrating.

Yeah Dante's caphold kinda screwed any potential cap space we had last year and without his contract this offseason we'd be even more flexible. I love Favs, he's a valuable contributor... I just wonder if he is back he is a crutch that may raise the floor of the team but limit the potential ceiling.

If he was the hangup in the Conley deal that is crazy to me still... I don't believe he was, but some of the reporting seems to indicate otherwise.

 

[candrew]

I agree... the fact we have to pay guys isn’t a reason to be conservative. The nba has proven no contract is untradeable. If we got in a bind financially we could wiggle out.

Scared money don’t make none... doesn’t mean we have to get dumb... but an overpay for a good addition is fine.

My fear is Locke's statement is a true reflection of The Jazz FO mentality. Once you peel through the layers of Steve Starks sound bytes and PR nonsense, the true Jazz business model is to maintain a level of competitiveness while practicing an ultra conservative approach to payroll and personnel while hoping a first round upset here and there and the occasional trip deep into the playoffs every ten years or so is enough to tide the fan base over.

 

[SoUjazzfan]

^^^
I'm afraid this is exactly the mindset. From a business standpoint it makes the most sense. I feel like Larry had a real desire to try and bring a championship here after he became financially set, but that hasn't been the feeling since he passed.

 

[LoPo]

Yeah Dante's caphold kinda screwed any potential cap space we had last year and without his contract this offseason we'd be even more flexible. I love Favs, he's a valuable contributor... I just wonder if he is back he is a crutch that may raise the floor of the team but limit the potential ceiling.

Exum's cap hold didn't hurt us at all last summer because we had already committed the money to Favors and Thabo. Had we renounced those two, then yes, Exum's cap hold would have restricted us. We signed Exum with money over the cap since we had his rights. Whether we re-signed Exum or not, we would have had to use some sort of exception to add anybody else last summer.

I'm perfectly fine with people being upset with the draft pick used on Dante or the fact he has been hurt. But through his 5 years with our franchise, his salary amount has not been a roadblock for other dreams. It will definitely hurt us next year if he doesn't play well or just gets hurt again.

 

[SCS]

So Lou Williams?

I suggested that at the deadline. Lou Will would be perfect on this roster.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Exum's cap hold didn't hurt us at all last summer because we had already committed the money to Favors and Thabo. Had we renounced those two, then yes, Exum's cap hold would have restricted us. We signed Exum with money over the cap since we had his rights. Whether we re-signed Exum or not, we would have had to use some sort of exception to add anybody else last summer.

I'm perfectly fine with people being upset with the draft pick used on Dante or the fact he has been hurt. But through his 5 years with our franchise, his salary amount has not been a roadblock for other dreams. It will definitely hurt us next year if he doesn't play well or just gets hurt again.

Bruh... if you are planning to waive his cap hold then you waive the other guys. If he wasn’t in our future plans we could have easily had some dough to play with... may have been able to come back to Favs if we struck out... prolly not but I’d love to know what his market was.

We could kick tires get a taker then waive the other guys and capholds... we didn’t really even kick any other tires.

 

[LoPo]

I feel that the following roster could do more damage than the current roster:

Starters - Donovan, Redick, Ingles, Royce, Gobert
Primary Bench - Exum, Crowder, Korver, Bench Big (Favors, Bjelica, Aminu, Ilaysova, etc.)
Deep Bench - Neto, Bradley, Grayson, draft pick

 

[LoPo]

Bruh... if you are planning to waive his cap hold then you waive the other guys. If he wasn’t in our future plans we could have easily had some dough to play with... may have been able to come back to Favs if we struck out... prolly not but I’d love to know what his market was.

We could kick tires get a taker then waive the other guys and capholds... we didn’t really even kick any other tires.

But Exum's caphold was irrelevant because we prioritized Favors first. We put all the eggs into the Favors basket. Once we did that, we were capped out. Internally, we could keep Thabo, Exum, Udoh, Jerekbo, Neto and Stockton. Externally, we had the ability to add someone via an exception. We decided to keep 4 of the 6 internal guys and let Jerekbo and Stockton walk. Then we signed Niang to a minimum deal.

Unless we did some illegal communication (PG, etc.), we went right to Favors when the clock struck midnight when communication could legally begin. Exum's caphold was irrelevant. We didn't try to use our potential space anywhere else. It was all Favors.

 

[Spinoza]

Here's a start. Get 2 point guards that will play 70+ games a year at least. If we can trade Exum, that'd be great too.

Sign someone at the 4 or trade Favors for a stretch 4.

Hope that Gobert learns 1 offensive move in his entire career.

Ingles has REALLY fallen off since the start of the season which is concerning.

Basically, anyone should be free game except Donovan or Gobert. That's including Ingles.

I agree with the general gist. I've already checked out of the rest of this season. It's clear this team isn't going anywhere.

With that said, it was absolutely the right choice to not trade for Conley. We don't need 30 mil+ a year for a guy who is going to take the ball out of Mitchell's hands even more than Rubio. You build around Mitchell, Gobert, and Favors. Those are the only three that have proven themselves to be are able to consistently contribute. Crowder, O'Neale, and Korver are great role players, keep them around. Other than that, the rest of the roster needs a massive upgrade.

 

[416Klawzz]

Here's a start. Get 2 point guards that will play 70+ games a year at least. If we can trade Exum, that'd be great too.

Sign someone at the 4 or trade Favors for a stretch 4.

Hope that Gobert learns 1 offensive move in his entire career.

Ingles has REALLY fallen off since the start of the season which is concerning.

Basically, anyone should be free game except Donovan or Gobert. That's including Ingles.

Kinda harsh and challenging because we are Utah ...

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

But Exum's caphold was irrelevant because we prioritized Favors first. We put all the eggs into the Favors basket. Once we did that, we were capped out. Internally, we could keep Thabo, Exum, Udoh, Jerekbo, Neto and Stockton. Externally, we had the ability to add someone via an exception. We decided to keep 4 of the 6 internal guys and let Jerekbo and Stockton walk. Then we signed Niang to a minimum deal.

Unless we did some illegal communication (PG, etc.), we went right to Favors when the clock struck midnight when communication could legally begin. Exum's caphold was irrelevant. We didn't try to use our potential space anywhere else. It was all Favors.

Yes but part of the reason we operated that way was because we wanted to retain Exum... we planned on matching anything which means keeping the caphold.

If we had been willing to risk losing them then maybe you can get in some conversations. If you are willing to risk those guys you could talk with other free agents... get a commitment then waive those guys... if they get poached in the meantime oh well. His caphold along with those items were the issues... but we could have cut all of Udoh, Thabo, and Jonas... and left the holds on the book while we discussed FA.

Favs didn’t sign at midnight... no illegal nonsense needed... we could have talked with other dudes but Exum/Favs were prioritized. Their capholds/presence meant we didn’t have space but we coulda cleared it.

 

[LoPo]

Yes but part of the reason we operated that way was because we wanted to retain Exum... we planned on matching anything which means keeping the caphold.

If we had been willing to risk losing them then maybe you can get in some conversations. If you are willing to risk those guys you could talk with other free agents... get a commitment then waive those guys... if they get poached in the meantime oh well. His caphold along with those items were the issues... but we could have cut all of Udoh, Thabo, and Jonas... and left the holds on the book while we discussed FA.

Favs didn’t sign at midnight... no illegal nonsense needed... we could have talked with other dudes but Exum/Favs were prioritized. Their capholds/presence meant we didn’t have space but we coulda cleared it.

All signs say that Exum was not the priority. Continuity was the priority.

Thabo's team option deadline was the first day of free agency (July 1). On that same day, we met with Favors as soon as we could and made him an offer as soon as we could. Well, we picked up Thabo's option before we even confirmed Favors was going to accept our offer and before we even met with Exum. Thabo's deal took $5+ of the potential $20 million we could have freed up. Not long after, Favors was signed for $16.9.

So before we could even match on anything Exum related OR offer him a deal, we had all of our space allocated to Favors ($16.9) and Thabo ($5+). If we really were going to try to sign other people, we would have renounced Thabo on the first day. We didn't, which says we were going in the direction of just keeping everybody.

And who knows, if Favors would have gone somewhere else, it's not even a certainty that Exum would have been retained. Even with Thabo, we would have had $15 million in space. If Favors had declined our offer, it's conceivable that we just let Exum walk. You never know.

 

[Jingled]

Tony Jones did a Q and A on 'The Athletic' website about a month ago . One of the questions was what players currently on the roster does the Jazz front office see as complimentary pieces to Rudy and Donovan in the future? This was his response:

"Ingles for sure. O'Neale for sure. I think the big wildcard is Exum. I think they want him to be healthy for these next three months and give them a healthy sample size."

So it sounds like the only two guy's they for sure want to keep besides Rudy and Donovan are Ingles and O'Neale. They still believe in Exum but need to see if he can ever stay healthy and how good he can actually be when healthy. Everyone else is expendable.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

All signs say that Exum was not the priority. Continuity was the priority.

Thabo's team option deadline was the first day of free agency (July 1). On that same day, we met with Favors as soon as we could and made him an offer as soon as we could. Well, we picked up Thabo's option before we even confirmed Favors was going to accept our offer and before we even met with Exum. Thabo's deal took $5+ of the potential $20 million we could have freed up. Not long after, Favors was signed for $16.9.

So before we could even match on anything Exum related OR offer him a deal, we had all of our space allocated to Favors ($16.9) and Thabo ($5+). If we really were going to try to sign other people, we would have renounced Thabo on the first day. We didn't, which says we were going in the direction of just keeping everybody.

And who knows, if Favors would have gone somewhere else, it's not even a certainty that Exum would have been retained. Even with Thabo, we would have had $15 million in space. If Favors had declined our offer, it's conceivable that we just let Exum walk. You never know.

We could have asked Thabo to push his date or just waived the guy... he wasn't getting $5M on the open market. He would have given us a few days... it happens quite frequently.

We didn't look to do it because the path was a bit tricky... but part of that evaluation was certainly retaining him and Favs... so to my first point... his caphold prevented us (in part) from kicking tires in free agency.

The opportunity cost on Exum has been really high... all I was really trying to point out is we have re-invested on the guy a few times... each time the gamble gets more expensive and has less upside imo. Failing fast has value.

 

[LoPo]

Tony Jones did a Q and A on 'The Athletic' website about a month ago . One of the questions was what players currently on the roster does the Jazz front office see as complimentary pieces to Rudy and Donovan in the future? This was his response:

"Ingles for sure. O'Neale for sure. I think the big wildcard is Exum. I think they want him to be healthy for these next three months and give them a healthy sample size."

So it sounds like the only two guy's they for sure want to keep besides Rudy and Donovan are Ingles and O'Neale. They still believe in Exum but need to see if he can ever stay healthy and how good he can actually be when healthy. Everyone else is expendable.

I agree with that assessment 100%. Mitchell, Gobert, Ingles, O'Neale and maybe Exum. I'd probably add in Crowder too, but I can understand how he isn't in the same category as the other two.

 

[LoPo]

We could have asked Thabo to push his date or just waived the guy... he wasn't getting $5M on the open market. He would have given us a few days... it happens quite frequently.

We didn't look to do it because the path was a bit tricky... but part of that evaluation was certainly retaining him and Favs... so to my first point... his caphold prevented us (in part) from kicking tires in free agency.

The opportunity cost on Exum has been really high... all I was really trying to point out is we have re-invested on the guy a few times... each time the gamble gets more expensive and has less upside imo. Failing fast has value.

If we truly had an agenda to pursue big free agents, we wouldn't have picked up the team option on Thabo on the first day of the moratorium period. So in my opinion, the entire goal of summer 2018 was to keep everything intact. Considering we picked up Thabo's option and offered Favors a deal on Day 1 of the moratorium, Exum's caphold was not holding anything up. We had already verbally or used an option which offered all of our cap space.

So back to my original point - Exum's caphold has not held us from anything else. We paid him $9.6 which was more than we could pay any free agent last year (after keeping Thabo and signing Favors).

The only thing about Exum now is - is he part of the future here or is he expendable? If he's expendable, is there a market for him or are we just stuck with his contract? If he's expendable and we can't move him, then I start getting pissed at Exum like everybody else. For the rest of this season though, I think it's incorrect to bash him for getting in the way of 2018 free agent pursuits.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If we truly had an agenda to pursue big free agents, we wouldn't have picked up the team option on Thabo on the first day of the moratorium period. So in my opinion, the entire goal of summer 2018 was to keep everything intact. Considering we picked up Thabo's option and offered Favors a deal on Day 1 of the moratorium, Exum's caphold was not holding anything up. We had already verbally or used an option which offered all of our cap space.

So back to my original point - Exum's caphold has not held us from anything else. We paid him $9.6 which was more than we could pay any free agent last year (after keeping Thabo and signing Favors).

The only thing about Exum now is - is he part of the future here or is he expendable? If he's expendable, is there a market for him or are we just stuck with his contract? If he's expendable and we can't move him, then I start getting pissed at Exum like everybody else. For the rest of this season though, I think it's incorrect to bash him for getting in the way of 2018 free agent pursuits.

I believe we had to waive Thabo by July 1st. We didn't pick up an option... he was non-guaranteed.

Exum's deal was close enough to the MLE that we could have spent that much for a player, but if we did that plus the Exum and Favs deal plus picking up Thabo's option now you are in the tax.

Cap or otherwise... Dante has been a pricey investment and according to Tony Jones we are still trying to get a healthy sample size of WTF he is.

I didn't bash him, but his deal (caphold) was a factor in our FA consideration. Favs was likely a bigger factor but with him it was more justified as he is a quality NBA player.

 

[416Klawzz]

Let's be honest here, Korver is simply too old to be our primary shooter on the perimeter. His work takes legs, young legs.

I miss Burks ...

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Seeing what mike Conley has done since the all star break makes me a little sad we didn’t complete that deal... even though I think dm’s Best position long term is pg.