Venezuela
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Hotdog
Well-Known Member
Socialism looks awesome.
Meanwhile in the terrible USA capitalistic oppresive society, we have to worry about horrible things like microaggressions, dog whistles, not being able to afford the latest iPhone, tv's arent big enough, food stamps not covering a brand new car, etc..
Oh the horror.
Capitalism, what have you done to us. I cant take it anymore.
Im protesting tomorrow. Who is with me?
Meanwhile in the terrible USA capitalistic oppresive society, we have to worry about horrible things like microaggressions, dog whistles, not being able to afford the latest iPhone, tv's arent big enough, food stamps not covering a brand new car, etc..
Oh the horror.
Capitalism, what have you done to us. I cant take it anymore.
Im protesting tomorrow. Who is with me?
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Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
Damn.
Most of what people call "problems" in a society like America's right now are "caused" by rampant prosperity. How many people in Venezuela are worried about having a gender-neutral bathroom in an elementary school right now?
One Brow
Well-Known Member
Especially when it is being attacked covertly by the world's only superpower.
Hotdog
Well-Known Member
Conspiracy theory.
You've lost all credibility.
Do not pass go. Do not collect your welfare check.
latin jazz
Well-Known Member
It's not only about socialism but more about rampant corruption, institutional weakness and utterly mismanagement. Corruption has no ideology. And on the other hand, US has a lot of problems too, especially when compared to other developed economies (or even developing countries). It's never as easy as left vs right.
Hotdog
Well-Known Member
Socialism and corruption go hand in hand. Much more so than Capitalism and corruption. When goods and services are scarce then people are motivated to do what they need to to survive. In capitalism there is an abundance of goods and services so the corruption comes from the motivation of greed. Survival is a stronger force than greed. Everyone will resort to survival. Not everyone is greedy.
latin jazz
Well-Known Member
Anything to back this up?. I see your point, I just disagree with it. I don't think it's survival vs greed.
If I understand correctly, you assume that in socialism, scarcity is the norm. I would argue that lack of goods and services (or economic mismanagement) is not exclusive to socialism. There are lots of examples (in Latin America and other parts of the world) of capitalism experiencing what is happening in Venezuela now. I lived in one of them in the 80s/90s (Peru's hyperinflation period). What did we have in common? A corrupt political class, no institutions, and complete economic mismanagement. Irresponsible monetary and fiscal policies led to hyperinflation and thus, black markets and scarcity of goods. It was not the ideology that led us to the economic collapse, it was the failure of the state as a whole, the corrupt political class and the lack of institutions.
It truly sucks what is happening in Venezuela. In terms of natural resources, is one of the richest countries on earth. Under the false pretense of socialism, the country is now kidnapped by a bunch of incompetent corrupts who are driving the country to the ground.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Sigh
This thread took a very predictable turn.
One underreported issue is the amount of Venezuelan refugees and their impact on their neighbors. I just wonder how many more refugees can be absorbed into Colombia and Peru before we start seeing major issues there? It’s not like those are two extremely stable countries to begin with anyway. We’ve already seen Brazil elect a nativist strongman.
This thread took a very predictable turn.
One underreported issue is the amount of Venezuelan refugees and their impact on their neighbors. I just wonder how many more refugees can be absorbed into Colombia and Peru before we start seeing major issues there? It’s not like those are two extremely stable countries to begin with anyway. We’ve already seen Brazil elect a nativist strongman.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
This is a weird post that doesn’t quite make much sense to me. So are problems with equality not considered problems in your book due to America’s prosperity? Or should we ignore problems with equality because there are other countries out there poorer and lacking in opportunity?
addictionary
Well-Known Member
I believe he is referring to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs.
Stars Fan
Well-Known Member
https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018
Here is the corruption index from 2018. Take a look at the least corrupt countries at the top. Denmark, New Zealand, Finland, Sweden, and several other countries are often described by the right as socialist and self-described as social democratic societies. The US is 16th btw. It's not socialism but autocracy that fosters corruption. What is happening in Venezuela is a result of the autocrat who seized power and ran it into the ground, while paying off his cronies. That is corruption 101. It's not because he shared the wealth of the country with the people.
I agree that capitalism is the most efficient and effective economic model. It can also be cruel, and unfair. We are a bit removed from the great depression of the 1930s but we should not forget its lessons. Capitalist cycles left unregulated swing wildly up and down. Prudent checks on the system, and balancing wealth within the system is both healthy and just.
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latin jazz
Well-Known Member
That is true. It is estimated that more than 1 million venezuelans are living in Colombia, while more than 500k in Peru. So far, there are no major issues as Peru´s economy has been one of the strongest in the region for the last couple of decades, with high growth and very low unemployment. And there is a bit of sense of reciprocity as Venezuela absorved about 1 million Peruvians during our crisis in the 80/90s. However, we are far away from having an adequate social protection system. And both the health and education sectors face several issues in terms of perfomance and coverage. We all hope Venezuela's situation is solved soon as it is desestabilizing the whole region and it could be a matter of time before more far-right goverments/populists rise to power.
No, Hack, No. You know what? No. No hack, no. Power and corruption go hand in hand. The "free market" will never be capable of truly regulating that power. A powerful government is the only check that has shown to bend it. And even that isn't curbing it fast enough these days.
One Brow
Well-Known Member
Since when did you start trusting mainstream media reports?
https://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2019/03/11/the-lies-paving-the-road-to-an-attack-on-venezuela/
https://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2019/03/13/the-us-is-targeting-independent-journalists/
Don't be a sheeple.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
I get the reference. I understand maybe using it in conjunction with individual citizens or students or subsets in a citizenry. But it doesn’t make sense to apply it to an entire country to dismiss legitimate concerns or problems in another country as he so did he when he quoted “problems” in his post. As if LGBT issues aren’t real problems for our society to address. Ask a LGBT person if their problems aren’t real.
You could literally apply Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs to dismiss any social or economic problem.
Example 1:
“Why are Americans bitching about their health care “problems” when x-country is so poor and unstable that they don’t even have health care?”
Example 2:
“Why are American blacks and women protesting for voting rights “problems” when x-country is so poor that they don’t even have elections?”
I wonder if conservatives will apply this logic to their “problems” of having to own gas guzzling trucks, own an army’s worth of guns and ammo, being paid to speak at college campuses, and needing to be able to wear red hats without being called bigots? After all, they shouldn’t complain about these “first world problems.” People in Venezuela don’t care about owning big trucks or owning guns, they’re starving. Right? Likewise, conservatives shouldn’t complain about not having access to every bazooka out there or being paid to speak at universities, right? Other countries are starving!
Cough Maslow Cough
addictionary
Well-Known Member
Really? I didn’t read it as he was referring to developed societies ‘ needs as empty and needless. I just thougt he was pointing out what causes different levels of motivations and needs. But I agree that this difference doesn’t make an American citizen’s LGBT related rights issues pointless. Humans always tend to seek for more complex needs as they fulfil lower levels of the pyramid of needs. Venezuela staying without electricity or African kids dying of hunger does not make these issues needless to fight for.
Hotdog
Well-Known Member
A panel of "experts" tell is what the PERCEPTION of corruption is in every country.
Im not sure how this tells us anything we can reliably depend on.
Corruption by its very nature is secretive. Im not sure how you accurately quantify that.
Probably a left leaning site tbh.