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Handlogten's Heros said:
I think the issue is you make it sound as though we definitely win if we stay healthy… which is just not the case. Depth was one issue, coaching or not being able to adjust was another. Health of your best players is always a requirement. The clips series the defense was so trashy… part of that is having hobbled guys… but last year it was trashy too and we were healthy for the most part. We have issues that won’t be solved with just good health… though that is obviously a requirement.

The clips series we stole one with them coming off a long series… win the next one because we shot 51% from three… the next 4 games we lost by 26, 14, 8, 12.
That’s not really close… without Kawhi for three of those. Both teams full strength we likely lose. Because we went up 2-0 we trick ourselves into thinking we had em when the fact is the margin of victory suggest it wasn’t super close.
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To the last point as well it took two superhuman games from Donovan too.
 
LoPo said:
Injuries are a major part of the entire scenario.



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Sometimes. But not always (as we saw with the 2 teams in the finals)

Let's say that Chris Paul is out vs the Lakers but AD is healthy. Sure it would be nice for the suns to have the depth that they had but would it have been enough to win that series?

No cp3 vs the clippers with kahwi. Who wins?

No cp3 vs the nuggets with Murray. Who wins?

No Middleton vs the nets with kyrie and harden healthy. Who wins?


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Handlogten's Heros said:
I think the issue is you make it sound as though we definitely win if we stay healthy… which is just not the case. Depth was one issue, coaching or not being able to adjust was another. Health of your best players is always a requirement. The clips series the defense was so trashy… part of that is having hobbled guys… but last year it was trashy too and we were healthy for the most part. We have issues that won’t be solved with just good health… though that is obviously a requirement.

The clips series we stole one with them coming off a long series… win the next one because we shot 51% from three… the next 4 games we lost by 26, 14, 8, 12.
That’s not really close… without Kawhi for three of those. Both teams full strength we likely lose. Because we went up 2-0 we trick ourselves into thinking we had em when the fact is the margin of victory suggest it wasn’t super close.
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I don't think we definitely win if healthy. Not at all.
I think that if we face the Lakers without AD and we are healthy we win that series though.
I think that if we face the nuggets without Murray and we are healthy we win that series though.
I think that if we face the clippers without kahwi and we are healthy then we win that series though.
And I think if we face the bucks and we are healthy we win that series.

I also think that if the suns were missing cp3 against the Lakers and the Lakers were healthy then they would lose that series. If they played the nuggets without cp3 and the nuggets had Murray then I think they might lose that series. I think it they played the clippers without cp3 and the clippers had kahwi then they lose that series (hell they lose that series even as it was if they don't get pretty lucky in 2 of the games) even with their great depth.

So what I'm saying is simply that we could have done what the suns did (and maybe even beat the bucks) if we have the same health as the suns and our opponents have the same health as the suns opponents even though we weren't as deep.
When you are healthier like the bucks and suns were you don't need the depth as much.

When the jazz were healthy they were very very good this season in the regular season and the playoffs against all types of opponents. When we were missing Conley or Donovan or both we weren't as good surprisingly.

Having your best players healthy in the playoffs is important imo. Having depth and versatility deep into your bench is also important.

I think having your best players healthy is even more important than having depth and versatility deep into your bench though. Agree to disagree I guess


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Having depth and versatility is a good thing. I think the suns were deeper and more versatile than the jazz and the jazz should try to improve their depth and versatility.

But even if we were as deep and versatile as the suns but we don't have conley (or Rudy or Donovan) then we still don't make the finals imo.

And I also think that even with the suns great depth and versatility they wouldn't make the finals without cp3 (or booker or ayton). Having your best players available appears to have a huge effect on how a team does in the playoffs using hindsight and seeing how the playoffs played out.

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fishonjazz said:
Yes my mind is made up that having your best players miss lots of playoff games is detrimental to winning lots of playoff games. You won't be able to change my mind on that.
Do you think that if Giannis or middleton missed more games than they played in that they would have still won the title?

Do you think of Chris Paul or booker would have missed more games than they played in that they would have went to the finals?

I agree that each team had a few guys miss a few games. I think that having a few guys miss a few games is advantageous to having your best guys miss lots of games like many contenders in these playoffs had happen.

The bucks and suns built great contending teams. So did the jazz, Lakers, nuggets, clippers, nets, etc. The bucks and suns just happened to be luckier with health than those other teams.

You have to build a contending roster. Then, you also have to usually get lucky. Not only did the suns get lucky with their own health. They also got lucky with their opponent lack of health. And even with that luck they still needed more luck to get past the clippers (if Paul George, a great free throw shooter makes 2 free throws at the end of a game the clippers win that game. If there is a review on an out of bounds play at the end of another game the clippers likely win that one and finish off the suns in 6 games.)


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Nice to see you praise Middleton for once.

The jazz won TWO games against a solid, competitive playoff team. Then lost 4 straight, including 2 without Kawhi. So your evidence that we were a contender is based completely on this last regular season. Like, 100%.

Not convincing.
 
fishonjazz said:
Having depth and versatility is a good thing. I think the suns were deeper and more versatile than the jazz and the jazz should try to improve their depth and versatility.

But even if we were as deep and versatile as the suns but we don't have conley (or Rudy or Donovan) then we still don't make the finals imo.

And I also think that even with the suns great depth and versatility they wouldn't make the finals without cp3 (or booker or ayton). Having your best players available appears to have a huge effect on how a team does in the playoffs using hindsight and seeing how the playoffs played out.

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Nobody is saying that health isn’t crucial.... so I have no idea who you’re arguing with.

I watched most of the finals. It was clear to me that we didn’t have a team that belonged on that stage. That was an observation based on talent, versatility, fit, and scheme.... And I was comparing both teams to the jazz at full strength. Health wasn’t what prevented us from lifting the trophy. Did it impact our run? Obviously yes.
 
FAILED STATE said:
Nobody is saying that health isn’t crucial.... so I have no idea who you’re arguing with.

I watched most of the finals. It was clear to me that we didn’t have a team that belonged on that stage. That was an observation based on talent, versatility, fit, and scheme.... And I was comparing both teams to the jazz at full strength. Health wasn’t what prevented us from lifting the trophy. Did it impact our run? Obviously yes.
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Agree to disagree. I watched those finals. I felt like we (Rudy) could have done a better job against Giannis. Also saw some low scores in those finals. Don't think anyone could hold the jazz offense down to those point totals. We averaged 122 ppg in the playoffs when we were healthy.
Out of 6 finals games the two teams combined reached 122 points 1 time (so 1 out of 12. 2 teams X 6 games). The bucks got 123 in a game. Jazz averaged 122. (Sample size was admittedly small but it's the sample size we got unfortunately)

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One thing about the conley injury that hurts so bad is that he was playing so damn good in the playoffs pre injury. He was peaking.
His points, rebounds, and assists were all higher than his regular season numbers (his assists were way up).
His efficiency was off the charts up compared to his regular season. 47% from the field, 55% from three, and 100% from the line.

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fishonjazz said:
I don't think we definitely win if healthy. Not at all.
I think that if we face the Lakers without AD and we are healthy we win that series though.
I think that if we face the nuggets without Murray and we are healthy we win that series though.
I think that if we face the clippers without kahwi and we are healthy then we win that series though.
And I think if we face the bucks and we are healthy we win that series.

I also think that if the suns were missing cp3 against the Lakers and the Lakers were healthy then they would lose that series. If they played the nuggets without cp3 and the nuggets had Murray then I think they might lose that series. I think it they played the clippers without cp3 and the clippers had kahwi then they lose that series (hell they lose that series even as it was if they don't get pretty lucky in 2 of the games) even with their great depth.

So what I'm saying is simply that we could have done what the suns did (and maybe even beat the bucks) if we have the same health as the suns and our opponents have the same health as the suns opponents even though we weren't as deep.
When you are healthier like the bucks and suns were you don't need the depth as much.

When the jazz were healthy they were very very good this season in the regular season and the playoffs against all types of opponents. When we were missing Conley or Donovan or both we weren't as good surprisingly.

Having your best players healthy in the playoffs is important imo. Having depth and versatility deep into your bench is also important.

I think having your best players healthy is even more important than having depth and versatility deep into your bench though. Agree to disagree I guess


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So I guess others just got lucky and we didn’t. You need health… and you need luck… the Jazz front office failed to give us depth. Had they given us some depth then absolutely the luck stuff migh


Clips beating us without Kawhi should be revealing… especially since once they figured us out the average margin of victory was 15 pts.

Bucks did have a starter out and won the finals… take a starter off the Jazz… even if it’s just Royce or Bogey and we are ****ed. Half the damn roster was unplayable in the playoffs… yet every time we mention making changes people pipe in and say we just needed to be healthy… whatevs… you are right… just gotta be lucky. Everyone cross yo fingers!
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
So I guess others just got lucky and we didn’t. You need health… and you need luck… the Jazz front office failed to give us depth. Had they given us some depth then absolutely the luck stuff migh


Clips beating us without Kawhi should be revealing… especially since once they figured us out the average margin of victory was 15 pts.

Bucks did have a starter out and won the finals… take a starter off the Jazz… even if it’s just Royce or Bogey and we are ****ed. Half the damn roster was unplayable in the playoffs… yet every time we mention making changes people pipe in and say we just needed to be healthy… whatevs… you are right… just gotta be lucky. Everyone cross yo fingers!
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Oh you missed the part where i posted that the jazz should try to get deeper and more versatile. It was in there you just missed it.
I have simply said, over and over again, that health was extremely important in these playoffs. And that luck also plays a part. Agree to disagree.
You can win it all without having great depth at the end of your bench..... if your key players stay healthy and you have some luck. You can have the deepest end of the bench in the history of the league and have some luck but if your main guys are out then the 8th 9th 10th guys of the rotation are not going to be enough to compensate for the losses of guys like giannis, cp3, booker, conley, donovan, kahwi, lebron, AD, etc etc. If guys of that caliber go down (all star caliber) then having great guys at the end of the bench like torrey craig (dude who played 1 minute in the close out game of the finals) wont typically be enough to compensate for the loss of an all star. Suns and Bucks had their all stars on the court for the majority of the games. That was the biggest factor to them making the finals. Other contenders didn't have all their all stars on the court and that was the biggest factor to those teams not making the finals.
 
fishonjazz said:
Oh you missed the part where i posted that the jazz should try to get deeper and more versatile. It was in there you just missed it.
I have simply said, over and over again, that health was extremely important in these playoffs. And that luck also plays a part. Agree to disagree.
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Yes that’s obvious… it’s not just this year… it’s every year. Doesn’t mean when others are saying we need to build out the roster that they aren’t correct. Which is what starts this ****. Suns likely lose a game they won in the playoffs if not for Torrey ****ing Craig… clips end up in the finals versus the Bucks. You have to do all of those things to win a title… we did not give ourselves a chance to get lucky.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yes that’s obvious… it’s not just this year… it’s every year. Doesn’t mean when others are saying we need to build out the roster that they aren’t correct. Which is what starts this ****. Suns likely lose a game they won in the playoffs if not for Torrey ****ing Craig… clips end up in the finals versus the Bucks. You have to do all of those things to win a title… we did not give ourselves a chance to get lucky.
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I think we did give ourselves a chance to get lucky though. Then conley got hurt.
If cp3 got hurt then the suns don't have a chance to get lucky anymore even though they did a good job getting guys like Torrey Craig at the end of their rotation.
What would have given us a chance to get lucky in your opinion?

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Another frustrating thing.....
Chris paul and mike conley have both had some injury issues in their careers. CP3 is 35 years old and conley is 33 years old. CP3 played in 70 regular season games. Mike conley played in 51. CP3 averaged 31.4 minutes per game. Conley averaged 29.4 minutes per game. So we had the younger more rested player of the two and our dude is the one that gets hurt.
fml.
 
fishonjazz said:
I think we did give ourselves a chance to get lucky though. Then conley got hurt.
If cp3 got hurt then the suns don't have a chance to get lucky anymore even though they did a good job getting guys like Torrey Craig at the end of their rotation.
What would have given us a chance to get lucky in your opinion?

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CP did get hurt… and they weathered the storm with their depth… AD also got hurt… had they not had Cam they may lose one of the LA series. They didn’t need Cam… they had Moore, Galloway and paid Carter in the offseason… but they used a roster spot on Cam… so they made their own ****ing luck.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
CP did get hurt… and they weathered the storm with their depth… AD also got hurt… had they not had Cam they may lose one of the LA series. They didn’t need Cam… they had Moore, Galloway and paid Carter in the offseason… but they used a roster spot on Cam… so they made their own ****ing luck.
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You didn't answer my question.
 
fishonjazz said:
You didn't answer my question.
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If we have a player like cam Payne then I think we can weather the storm with Mike out… also don’t wear out Joe down the stretch trying for the first seed. I mean if we were as close as some make it then having Langston Galloway or Torrey Craig in the Miye or Niang minutes and we might have been able to hold on long enough Mike gets back.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
If we have a player like cam Payne then I think we can weather the storm with Mike out… also don’t wear out Joe down the stretch trying for the first seed. I mean if we were as close as some make it then having Langston Galloway or Torrey Craig in the Miye or Niang minutes and we might have been able to hold on long enough Mike gets back.
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Yeah but what if you go out and get those guys but never need them? Huge waste. Plus they could become malcontent and it could hurt our image amongst players in the league.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
If we have a player like cam Payne then I think we can weather the storm with Mike out… also don’t wear out Joe down the stretch trying for the first seed. I mean if we were as close as some make it then having Langston Galloway or Torrey Craig in the Miye or Niang minutes and we might have been able to hold on long enough Mike gets back.
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Remember Mudiay? He was available but Quin must think the guy has cooties.
 
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