Well, when you have a dozen cats who notices when one or two aren't there one day, or swap out with other cats around the neighborhood?
I've never had more than two cats at a time. Usually one.
Yeah but they **** outside and don't expect you to clean up after them like a diva. Take them to your neighbor's house and you don't have to deal with ***** in your yard either! It's a win-win, you know, for me!
We’ve displayed enough animosity toward one another, at times, I can’t be surprised if his first thought about this thread were “what’s Red up to?” I guess you could say he assumes I’m trolling him, because he knows he’s a troll, and no more than a troll, so his immediate reaction is suspicion of my motives. But I believe he believes most of what he posts. The trolling might be a motive, but within the context of his own world view, which I believe he’s honest about in expressing that world view..
Completely understandable and easily relatable.
Well, sure-- there's subjectivity in everything. That doesn't mean some behaviors-- I'm not talking about traits-- aren't universally reprehensible, despite the insistence by some confused and angry individuals to defend and justify them. I think of Andrew Tate as a pretty clear example of someone behaving in a toxic manner, for example, and he makes clear claims that he's some kind of template for what masculinity ought to be. I wouldn't want my sons following his example. Does his massive following mean I'm wrong and he doesn't represent a toxic form of masculinity?
The lack of any societal correlation is where I think you run off the tracks. You are alleging the hyper-masculine character, and it is a character, played by Andrew Tate is toxic. Fine. Show me the societal effects. Show me that Andrew Tate starts doing toxic thing on date ‘X’ and you can see on date ‘X’ that society measurably changes in response. The term ‘toxic’ doesn’t mean thing you disagree with or don’t like. It means poison, so show me the direct effects on society of the poison or I’m doubting it is a poison at all.
I really appreciate that.
Great post except for the last paragraph. Dude's just a well-spoken trollYeah, and you don't have to like it. That's fine. It doesn't make it less of a reality that certain behaviors are universally reprehensible. I think it's the current, popular label of 'toxic masculinity' that's hanging you up. Fine. Let's use other words. How about 'misogyny'? Do I need to demonstrate on a trendline that misogyny is a social problem, or do you concur with that wild assertion? Homophobia as a social ill could be demonstrated with data, if you like, but I suspect you'd minimize its impact. 'Bullying' is a term synonymous with the concept of toxic masculinity. Is that just boys being boys, or is it a behavior that you would help your own son(s) understand to be unacceptable, to grow through, and not to be an expression of healthy masculinity? These are all synonymous with what is labeled 'toxic masculinity'. I get the sense you hear the term as a blanket criticism of masculinity, and I'm don't agree that it is.
(I'm not all that interested in going down the rabbit hole you're framing up with this graph, incidentally. You're going to try and show causation-- although I'm curious what data point you're going to use to represent social stability/unrest-- and I'm going to argue you're using some logical fallacies or other to try and prove a point. You'll disagree with that, and the circle goes round and round. That's good enough for me. We're allowed our opinions.)
For the record, I do respect you. A lot. You're a valuable contributor to this forum, for what my opinion is worth to you, if for no other reason than you obstruct what might otherwise be an echo chamber, and with compelling arguments. Most of us disagree with them on principle, but they're compelling nonetheless.
Yes. That is how you determine what is or is not actually a problem for society. Misogyny is a great example of the perils of taking pronouncements of what constitutes a social problem on faith alone. By nearly every measure, there is less misogyny in American society now than there was 30 years ago, yet women on average are less happy, more likely to be on anti-depressants, less likely to starting families, and a host of other metrics indicating a less healthy society. Most things that are considered misogyny are unwelcome pressure to conform to gender roles, but is that pressure to conform a net positive or net negative for the health of the whole of society? If you say misogyny is a social problem then show your work. I do not think the statement is beyond question in the way you are presenting it.
Bullying is a combination of unwelcome pressure to conform and the establishment of hierarchy, which is necessary in every functional society. It isn't a fun process and I feel for any kid going through it, but I'm not convinced removing it entirely either can be done or that it should be done.
Thank you. That is very kind to say. You are a class act.For the record, I do respect you. A lot. You're a valuable contributor to this forum, for what my opinion is worth to you, if for no other reason than you obstruct what might otherwise be an echo chamber, and with compelling arguments. Most of us disagree with them on principle, but they're compelling nonetheless.
