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What did KOC know and when?

H

Harcher

Well-Known Member
How much of the goings on are in place, laid out in advance? Obviously it is not laid down in concrete, but some things could well be known. Minny's situation with AJ for one. Boozer's trade value/street value for 2, same with Korver.

At end of season -
Not signing Boozer - maybe Korver? Decision made. (Unless boozer signed for MLE or somethign.)


At Draft Day
- No bigs were worth trading up or couldn't trade up
- In choosing Hayward, some have speculated KOC had some knowledge/plan


At Free Agent Day
- I can't imagine too much is known about top tier FA's
- Minny and Utah have pre-planned this trade situation in advance I think - Just the way KOC walked out on the ESA floor on draft day makes me think he was up to something.


~week ago- was it only at this point that the AJ story really unfolded and KOC/Jazz lucked out?

What thinks ye?
 
On draft day, we didn't have Boozer's TPE. Once we had Boozer's TPE, I think he probably made a call to Minny, but like everyone they had to wait out the Bron situation. Minny probably held out hope a big Cap Space team was going to bowl them over when they lost out on the Top Tier Guys. Probably tried to talk NJ and NJ wasn't interested. THEN Kahn went to his Plan B's. My guess is the only 'pre-planned' agreement was KOC telling Kahn to keep him in the loop and not to trade Jefferson without talking to us. That's my Timeline Guess.
 
Whatever the timeline, my guess is that KOC has been workin 16+ hour days for a good long spell now, tryin to keep in touch with many agents and organizations, makin and listening to new suggestions, etc.

Those who "knew" that KOC was sitting back, just twiddlin his thumbs, lookin and actin stoopid, with no plans or thoughts whatsover, must have been in his office to see it. How else could they achieve such knowledge and/or reach such a conclusion, know what I'm sayin?
 
billyshelby said:
On draft day, we didn't have Boozer's TPE. Once we had Boozer's TPE, I think he probably made a call to Minny, but like everyone they had to wait out the Bron situation. Minny probably held out hope a big Cap Space team was going to bowl them over when they lost out on the Top Tier Guys. Probably tried to talk NJ and NJ wasn't interested. THEN Kahn went to his Plan B's. My guess is the only 'pre-planned' agreement was KOC telling Kahn to keep him in the loop and not to trade Jefferson without talking to us. That's my Timeline Guess.
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Good analysis.

We know KOC tried to move up to ostensibly get Cousins. When that didn't happen, I think he had the FA bigs and those who were supposedly on the trading block ranked in order. It's no secret Minny has wanted to trade Al. They would have taken something at the deadline had a good deal arisen.

Pretty sure Greg/KOC had already made up their mind re: Carlos. Sure, I guess they'd take him back at $10M if there was no market. But 99.9% chance he'd go elsewhere. But it's a PR game, don't bad-mouth him; you never know when you might have to deal with Pelinka again on another client.

KOC was undoubtedly working the phones, lining up Plan B-Z scenarios. But really, he couldn;t do much until Boozer made his deal (and he did a S&T to get a TPE and/or picks, like all teams try to do). And his hands have been tied in regards to the MLE - had to keep the entire amount open until someone made an offer for Wesley, or Wesley's agent did a deal with the Jazz.

Portland making an offer on Saturday to Wesley was a TREMENDOUS break. Dallas was SOOOOOOOO close to making the deal for Al. Imagine if Portland had waited a few days. KOC would be calling Harrington instead of doing the deal for Jefferson.

Kudos to KOC and a BIG THANKS to the Millers for stepping up to the plate.
 
Are you guys trying to make KOC out to be some genius? It has been on the Internet that the Wolves were looking to deal Jefferson for awhile now. KOC did a good job getting the trade exception but he has done a poor job managing the finances and negotiating deals. The Jazz basically let Boozer walk because they had no choice because they mismanaged the salary cap (giving AK his contract and extending Okur). Letting Milsap and Matthews find market value instead of offering them deals was also a mistake. I am a big fan of Jefferson. I wanted the Jazz to draft him. I am happy he is on the team but KOC sucks as a negotiator. He gave up two first to get a guy who the other team didn't want anymore. So because of his moves the Jazz receive Jefferson and lose Boozer, possibly Matthews, Brewer and two first. One of those picks could be a lotto pick and if KOC keeps mismanaging the team and DW leaves then we might have given another lotto pick away. So I am happy that the Jazz filled Boozer's spot but it came at a higher price than some of you want to admit.
 
cowhide said:
KOC did a good job getting the trade exception but he has done a poor job managing the finances and negotiating deals.
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Deal. Out of everything you mentioned, and anything else I can recall, the only real mistake has been Kirilenko's contract. At the time, I supported that, too.
 
Jazz did make offers to Brewer and Millsap. Remember how Millsap's uncle reacted? And the offer wasn't that bad...I think it was in the 6's from what I understand. Then Portland decide to pay $8M and the Jazz decided they had to match. Matthews is the same scenario all over again, except this time I think EVERY team EXCEPT Portland has been stunned. I'll bet an initial conversation took place. But a street FA going from late season starter to a near-MLE deal. Are you kidding me? I'm still wondering if someone has pictures of Paul Allen naked. How else do you explain it?

C'mon, get serious. If you're in the market for any kind of job, whether it's an accountant or a burger-flipper, don't you try to find out what the range is before you start interviewing. And if you can get a couple of offers, don't you try? When I was looking for a FT job, I didn't sign with the first company that offered me a position. The offer was low and I thought I could get more $ elsewhere. And I actually used that offer as leverage later on.
 
Hopper said:
And the "fact" that KOC did not make any offer to Millsap and Matthews is something you learned where, exactly?
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That's been widely reported, actually. At least with Matthews. The strategy was that, since he was restricted and any deal would ultimately be up to the Jazz, let other teams dictate the market value for Matthews so that the Jazz wouldn't overpay right out of the gate.
 
cowhide said:
Letting Milsap and Matthews find market value instead of offering them deals was also a mistake.
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I am so tired of hearing this accusation. How do you know they didn't offer Sap and Wes contracts? Both were signed to offer sheets that were well and above what the Jazz thought was fair market value, by the same team. Matthews still appears to be well above FMV.

Too add, Matthews gave an interview on the local news that he was not going to sign anything with the Jazz until he explored his options, i.e. see what other teams were willing to offer him. So essentially, unless the Jazz had offered some gawd awful contract to Matthews he was not going to sign with the Jazz until he knew there was nothing better on the table. He found a better offer. A ridiculous one but better none the less.

For those that think the Jazz didn't offer a contract to these players before their exploring FA... :p
 
Haven't you guys figured out yet that some people on the list aren't going to like KOC regardless of what he does?
 
Marcus said:
I am so tired of hearing this accusation....For those that think the Jazz didn't offer a contract to these players before their exploring FA... :p
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Agree on both counts, Marcus. It's laughable. At the same time the presumptous and speculative attacks on the Jazz get a little wearisome, the humor of it all nothwithstandin.

Check out my sig, eh, JazzHaterz!?
 
My inside friend hung out with DWill last week and DWill told him that he was more excited about this up coming season than any other season he's played in so far. I'm guess they've been working on this for a while.
 
Archie Moses said:
My inside friend hung out with DWill last week and DWill told him that he was more excited about this up coming season than any other season he's played in so far. I'm guess they've been working on this for a while.
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Well, I bet your pal aint hung round with DWill as much as Borat, and them, eh, Archie, because they KNOW, for a stonecold fact, that Deron looks, acts, sounds, and most importantly of all, IS extremely unhappy, pessimistic, and dissatisfied with this team, ya know?

They have, in fact, PROVED it, see what I mean?
 
Hopper said:
Well, I bet your pal aint hung round with DWill as much as Borat, and them, eh, Archie, because they KNOW, for a stonecold fact, that Deron looks, acts, sounds, and most importantly of all, IS extremely unhappy, pessimistic, and dissatisfied with this team, ya know?

They have, in fact, PROVED it, see what I mean?
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Well, that's not what he was telling my friend when they played 18 together.
 
GlassEater said:
Good analysis.

We know KOC tried to move up to ostensibly get Cousins. When that didn't happen, I think he had the FA bigs and those who were supposedly on the trading block ranked in order. It's no secret Minny has wanted to trade Al. They would have taken something at the deadline had a good deal arisen.

Pretty sure Greg/KOC had already made up their mind re: Carlos. Sure, I guess they'd take him back at $10M if there was no market. But 99.9% chance he'd go elsewhere. But it's a PR game, don't bad-mouth him; you never know when you might have to deal with Pelinka again on another client.

KOC was undoubtedly working the phones, lining up Plan B-Z scenarios. But really, he couldn;t do much until Boozer made his deal (and he did a S&T to get a TPE and/or picks, like all teams try to do). And his hands have been tied in regards to the MLE - had to keep the entire amount open until someone made an offer for Wesley, or Wesley's agent did a deal with the Jazz.

Portland making an offer on Saturday to Wesley was a TREMENDOUS break. Dallas was SOOOOOOOO close to making the deal for Al. Imagine if Portland had waited a few days. KOC would be calling Harrington instead of doing the deal for Jefferson.

Kudos to KOC and a BIG THANKS to the Millers for stepping up to the plate.
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I do think the scenario that has played out was plan B. Plan A was a trade up scenario. but nearing draft day it was becoming clear to us armchair GM's there wasn't much option to move - all teams were dug into their positions quite well and jazz didn'thave much to offer.

So plan B - was as plain as KOC and Carlos saying together, openly - yes it is over here. We know you are going to get more than we are prepared to offer and we would like to assist you in getting EVEN MORE. So this was in the works since Draft day -2 or so. That is why Hayward was drafted. And Korver was gone at that point. (KOC would have plenty of data on how much the market would bear for him i think and he is not worth paying in Jazz system at the moment.)

With respect to Wes, i would think the Portland offer and anything like it was news to KOC day of or day before. I wonder what KOC's rebuttal was something like "stay with us and play a large part for $25M" and Wes said - nope, you better get closer than that and KOC said no thanks. What would you have done if you were in Wes's shoes? Hard to say for me becuase i'm so intrenched as a fan, but $25M and STARTING would have been worth it to me to stay.
 
Hopper said:
And the "fact" that KOC did not make any offer to Millsap and Matthews is something you learned where, exactly?
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From what I read in the paper KOC was quoted several times that they were waiting for offers. Please show me anywhere the Jazz made an offer to Millsap or Wes before any other team did. Your homerism is getting ridiculous.
 
cowhide said:
Are you guys trying to make KOC out to be some genius? It has been on the Internet that the Wolves were looking to deal Jefferson for awhile now. KOC did a good job getting the trade exception but he has done a poor job managing the finances and negotiating deals. The Jazz basically let Boozer walk because they had no choice because they mismanaged the salary cap (giving AK his contract and extending Okur). Letting Milsap and Matthews find market value instead of offering them deals was also a mistake. I am a big fan of Jefferson. I wanted the Jazz to draft him. I am happy he is on the team but KOC sucks as a negotiator. He gave up two first to get a guy who the other team didn't want anymore. So because of his moves the Jazz receive Jefferson and lose Boozer, possibly Matthews, Brewer and two first. One of those picks could be a lotto pick and if KOC keeps mismanaging the team and DW leaves then we might have given another lotto pick away. So I am happy that the Jazz filled Boozer's spot but it came at a higher price than some of you want to admit.
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I think KOC is not a genius; just navigating the current situation.

Carlos was let go. Fired in essence, if you want to hyperbolize it abit. He, while a very good player, is not the fit for the Jazz at the market price he can command. . IF the Jazz were 1 basket away from beating the lakers in 7 game series, Carlos would be resigned. The CB experiment is over. AJ experiment is now commencing. KOC is not a genius and absolutely knows that AJ is THE ANSWER, but he knows, as we can all see, that AJ is a great option to try.

Brewer was let go. Fired in essence, if you want to hyperbolize it abit... if Brew comes back here and takes $2-3 year - maybe he's worht that. But his original intent was $5-7 to re-up with the Jazz. So Jazz let him go.

Korver was let go...

Now if you want to say KOC is bad for getting those players in the first place then, that would be the argument.

Mathwes is a shocker to all. I'm in agreement with Hopper that we don't have any REAL evidence that KOC simply didn't negotiate. As noted, Wes said publicly he'd go see what is out there. The Jazz could have (and probably did - but we don't know either way) offered something of: "What do i have to do to get you to into a a Jazz uni today."

Ask yourself if you think Millsap's deal is worth it now? I was shocked at how much shock there was to his value - even after all the internet forum stuff pegged him at a 6-$8m a year guy, he got about that amount. How is letting the market decide what the value is such a bad negotiatioin tactic - WHEN after all is completed everyone feels win-win. KOC says "Paul you've found out the market says XYZ. Well we feel the same and will support you in that - let's hug. " With the temperamental nature of NBA players these days and the precarious place locker rooms are, i feel that is a very reasonable, full-picture strategy to signing RFA's. There is a commonly held belief that if you pay a worker $0.25/hr less than he feels he's worth you get 50% effort. If you pay the same person $0.25/hr higher than he thinks he's worth you get 110% effort. I would guess that Millsap has NO ISSUE with what he feels his worth is.

KOC is no genius but he's doing a pretty good job.
 
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