israel flotilla situation?

[DutchJazzer]

okay

so gaza launches rockets at israel daily.


israels response is no mor ships going to gaza.

if you want to deliver goods to gaza you must go through sirael so they can investigate if there are any rockets etc etc on the ship.

so now a ship trying to provoke things is going to gaza
israeli commandos say its not allowed they go ion the ship armed with paintball gun and a handgun.
the commandos are attacked and viciously beaten 1 got thrown 10 foot or something from one deck to another.
if a group of people attack you with sticks and knifes and you ahve a handgun i bet you wont use it cus its wrong.
well the israeli commandos waited for authorization to use their gun.
i dont know what the rules are of posting certain videos are.
dont wanna get a warning.
but youtube the flotilla thing. there are videos from BOTH sides. just watch and comeback and say israel is WRONG.

if so i hope people start launching rockets on your house

see how you handle that situation

 

[DutchJazzer]

oone more thing should they handle it like the UN handled certain situations in rwanda

like for example a mother and her baby are beaten and chopped to death by a group of men. but un does nothing but stand by and watch the horror.

but hey its wrong to use guns and tanks against peoples armed with machetes even when they are beating a baby to death
nice going babypeterz

 

[Gameface]

ooh really?



im a jew so if there is ahting going on its behind my back

For one, I meant the comment tongue-in-cheek. I think the real reason for the anti-Israel bias is because of their close ties to the U.S.. You can call me crazy, but I think the EU (certain members) have visions of unseating the U.S. in our role of world super power. In this effort they are more than happy to condemn Israel at every turn.

The basic question is this: does Israel have a right to exist? There are some valid arguments against. But honestly, Israel isn't going anywhere. If Palestine was to succeed where do all the Israelis go? Wouldn't Jews become the new Palestinians? Would Palestinians support a productive society as currently exists in Israel? Would Palestinians have the slightest regard for individual rights? What is the value of the Palestinian society/culture? I would say not very high. I'm not talking about individual Palestinian's value as human beings, or their individual right to exist, but the Palestinian society is crap. Provides a horrible environment to be a human being and destroys the potential of anyone misfortune enough to have been born there.

I tend to favor a society that actually provides a decent place for people to live and has a tendency to be productive. Both are true of Israel, neither is true of Palestine. I think it is a tragedy every time a human is born into a society that will stifle his/her human potential. The USSR was the worst offender, the Muslim world is a close second. In the greater scheme of things humanity will be better off if Israel wins this clash of cultures.

 

[Gameface]

I'm sticking with the guys with rocks on this one. Israel is flat out wrong here. They're actions may be "justified", but the way they have handled this situation is ****ed up. Fending off people who have limited weaponry with tanks and missles is slaughter. I think that's where the "anti-Israel" or "pro-Palestinian" position stands. It's not because they're Jewish, it's because they're acting imperialistic and overtly violent.

Your right to self defense doesn't go away because you are stronger than the person attacking you. If attacked you have every right to defend yourself.

I get the whole underdog thing the Palestinians have going for them, but this is an emotional reaction to seeing unarmed people throwing themselves at tanks.

Why does Israel have tanks and Palestine doesn't? I'd say because one culture is simply more effective/successful than the other. Sorry there are losers in the world, but Palestine is a big time loser.

 

[DutchJazzer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZprVPKi-W6s

a movie to consider.

contains gruesome images now and then. but nothing worse than is show on cnn

 

[DutchJazzer]

Your right to self defense doesn't go away because you are stronger than the person attacking you. If attacked you have every right to defend yourself.

I get the whole underdog thing the Palestinians have going for them, but this is an emotional reaction to seeing unarmed people throwing themselves at tanks.

Why does Israel have tanks and Palestine doesn't? I'd say because one culture is simply more effective/successful than the other. Sorry there are losers in the world, but Palestine is a big time loser.

amen gameface.


lol i would love to see baby peters being robbed by an assailant with a knife while he has a gun. getting stabbed to death while dying he would say to himself. its not wrong. i only will defend myself when people attack me with guns.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

For one, I meant the comment tongue-in-cheek. I think the real reason for the anti-Israel bias is because of their close ties to the U.S.. You can call me crazy, but I think the EU (certain members) have visions of unseating the U.S. in our role of world super power. In this effort they are more than happy to condemn Israel at every turn.

So how does the current European economic crisis fit into your narrative then? Is the EU going to use this to usurp more power from its people....claim more government is the answer......and require more uniformity between countries? They obviously don't believe in democracy anymore. I think the place is going to be run like China eventually myself. It's absolutely disgusting how many communists there are in the EU leadership currently.

 

[Gameface]

So how does the current European economic crisis fit into your narrative then? Is the EU going to use this to usurp more power from its people....claim more government is the answer......and require more uniformity between countries? They obviously don't believe in democracy anymore. I think the place is going to be run like China eventually myself. It's absolutely disgusting how many communists there are in the EU leadership currently.

I don't think of communism as a politician driven phenomenon. People often beg to be enslaved as long as there are promises that they will be well taken care of.

 

[Slappfisk]

Israel's blockade is legal unless it is declared illegal by the UN Security Council.

The vessel in question had declared its intent to run the blockade. Under the laws of the sea a neutral vessel can be boarded or attacked if it runs a blockade.

The fact that the ship was in international waters is irrelevant as blockades historically occur in international waters or the waters of your enemy. Why would anyone blockade their own ports?

The Israeli boarding was legitimate, if the Turks disagree they have two options. Complain to the UNSC and attempt to get them to declare the blockade as illegal or declare war on Israel.

I will pose a question. If you are pulled over by a police officer and he begins an illegal search of your vehicle are you entitled to attack him? Do you believe a court of law is going to greenlight an assault of a police officer under those circumstances? Of course not. That is why you allow the search to continue and you fight it out in court after the fact.

I have no pity for these people on the ship. They declared their intent to run the blockade. Their intention was to create an incident or invalidate the blockade by sailing right through.

They whipped themselves into a frenzy knowing the Israeli's could be on the way and attacked armed men and complain about the consequences.

 

[Qman]

As always I defer to this great wisdom-

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

 

[Qman]

Israel's blockade is legal unless it is declared illegal by the UN Security Council.

The vessel in question had declared its intent to run the blockade. Under the laws of the sea a neutral vessel can be boarded or attacked if it runs a blockade.

The fact that the ship was in international waters is irrelevant as blockades historically occur in international waters or the waters of your enemy. Why would anyone blockade their own ports?

The Israeli boarding was legitimate, if the Turks disagree they have two options. Complain to the UNSC and attempt to get them to declare the blockade as illegal or declare war on Israel.

I will pose a question. If you are pulled over by a police officer and he begins an illegal search of your vehicle are you entitled to attack him? Do you believe a court of law is going to greenlight an assault of a police officer under those circumstances? Of course not. That is why you allow the search to continue and you fight it out in court after the fact.

I have no pity for these people on the ship. They declared their intent to run the blockade. Their intention was to create an incident or invalidate the blockade by sailing right through.

They whipped themselves into a frenzy knowing the Israeli's could be on the way and attacked armed men and complain about the consequences.

I believe the UN has nothing to do with a blockade. It comes from the international maritime laws-- which are independent of the UN.

 

[Slappfisk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade#Legal_status

According to this article:

Since 1945, the UN Security Council determines the legal status of blockades and by article 42 of the UN Charter, the Council can also apply blockades.[8]

I cannot check the reference as its a book but whatever.

So yes, the conduct of a blockade is of course governed by international maritime law. However, the UNSC reserves the right to rule on the legality of blockade.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

amen gameface.


lol i would love to see baby peters being robbed by an assailant with a knife while he has a gun. getting stabbed to death while dying he would say to himself. its not wrong. i only will defend myself when people attack me with guns.

Wow, you're doing a great job arguing your point and changing my mind on Israeli aggression. I'm in no way supporting Palestinian attacks on Israel, no way.

You're saying that Israel is somehow going to be overthrown by the Palestinians? Laughable. Rebels with rocks, knives, and a missle or two is in no way threatening Israel. If you were hungry and your family was starving and tanks and soldiers were keeping you from eating, what would you do?

The argument goes both ways, it's not so black and white.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

Israel's blockade is legal unless it is declared illegal by the UN Security Council.

The vessel in question had declared its intent to run the blockade. Under the laws of the sea a neutral vessel can be boarded or attacked if it runs a blockade.

The fact that the ship was in international waters is irrelevant as blockades historically occur in international waters or the waters of your enemy. Why would anyone blockade their own ports?

The Israeli boarding was legitimate, if the Turks disagree they have two options. Complain to the UNSC and attempt to get them to declare the blockade as illegal or declare war on Israel.

I will pose a question. If you are pulled over by a police officer and he begins an illegal search of your vehicle are you entitled to attack him? Do you believe a court of law is going to greenlight an assault of a police officer under those circumstances? Of course not. That is why you allow the search to continue and you fight it out in court after the fact.

I have no pity for these people on the ship. They declared their intent to run the blockade. Their intention was to create an incident or invalidate the blockade by sailing right through.

They whipped themselves into a frenzy knowing the Israeli's could be on the way and attacked armed men and complain about the consequences.

Your analogy is a bit off. How about a cop pulls you over and searches your car illegally. You need to get home and administer medication to your dying son, and you don't have a minute to spare, he will die in minutes. This cop doesn't care, he's holding you and searching you whether you like it or not.

What would you do?

 

[moevillini]

the entire Palestinian - Israeli situation is sad. Both sides are right, both are wrong - both can find reasonable justification for the way they behave given the situations they are or have been or feel they might be in.

It's been ages since I read any history on the entire background of Palestine and the creation of Israel, but deep down I can't let go of my belief that part of the justification for the creation of Israel was the treatment suffered by the Jewish people at the hands of the ***** (German political party that was in power at the time), and the Palestinians (at least somewhat justifiably) feel they were kicked out of their own country. I just really lose patience with Israel when they keep building new settlements and further antagonizing the relationshi p with the Palestians.

Of course I realize it goes both ways. I wonder if Egypt regrets its actions that precipitated the Six Day War in 1967? That sort of seems to be where so much of the problem stems.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

I don't think of communism as a politician driven phenomenon. People often beg to be enslaved as long as there are promises that they will be well taken care of.

But when Europe's equivalent of the US progressives "Fairness Doctrine" drowns their respective countries in EU propaganda, what do you expect? Scores of these people are almost as programed as North Koreans.

What I was wondering is why you think Europe wants and is capable of being the world super power. What is telling you that? To me, they look absolutely lost right now. Nobody knows what to do so they are just scrambling and throwing money at everything hoping to keep economies propped up for as long as they can. It's not working and It's not hard to see where this is going - major war.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

But when Europe's equivalent of the US progressives "Fairness Doctrine" drowns their respective countries in EU propaganda, what do you expect? Scores of these people are almost as programed as North Koreans.

What I was wondering is why you think Europe wants and is capable of being the world super power. What is telling you that? To me, they look absolutely lost right now. Nobody knows what to do so they are just scrambling and throwing money at everything hoping to keep economies propped up for as long as they can. It's not working and It's not hard to see where this is going - major war.

You're worried about the EU and war with Europe.......seriously?

Take a look at China, that's the country most likely to take over as the world hegemon.

Funny you mention North Korea. Many are comparing our relationship with Israel to China's relationship with North Korea.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

You're worried about the EU and war with Europe.......seriously?

No. I'm saying they don't have clue what they are doing economically so they will be using war as the next economic stimulant because they are out of options. It's not going to be war with the EU. The usual suspects that have been in the news the past couple of weeks are going to get it. Where Russia and China would fall in that war is the big question. I'm talking world war here. I hope I'm not a potential draft pick, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Slappfisk]

Your analogy is a bit off. How about a cop pulls you over and searches your car illegally. You need to get home and administer medication to your dying son, and you don't have a minute to spare, he will die in minutes. This cop doesn't care, he's holding you and searching you whether you like it or not.

What would you do?

You have missed the point. It isn't a question of what is morally or ethically correct.

 

[Qman]

Wow, you're doing a great job arguing your point and changing my mind on Israeli aggression. I'm in no way supporting Palestinian attacks on Israel, no way.

You're saying that Israel is somehow going to be overthrown by the Palestinians? Laughable. Rebels with rocks, knives, and a missle or two is in no way threatening Israel. If you were hungry and your family was starving and tanks and soldiers were keeping you from eating, what would you do?

The argument goes both ways, it's not so black and white.

If there was no blockage the Palestinians would have rifles, missile launchers and tanks.