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What do you want to happen friday night?

Friday Night

  • Jazz win, go playoffs!!

    Votes: 23 32.4%

  • Season is over, and I want that GS pick!

    Votes: 38 53.5%

  • Either way, win win situation. (this really isn't picking a side though)

    Votes: 10 14.1%
  • Total voters
    71
  • Poll closed .
Bodhi said:
Haha, WHO IS SAYING T H E Y ARE SAYING THAT?!? You quoted me as your example of the Utah Jazz or any other organization excepting losing? While flattered I think you're assigning me more power than you should.
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wow, you just shifted the whole argument... again.

no i'm not saying the jazz feel that way. i was explaining why i'm not ok with YOUR approach. i want the jazz to win, tonight and every other chance they get. and you're absolutely right, i believe the jazz want to win, too. at least the players and coaches.
 
I think there is a whole lot of confusion about this argument between the tank crowd and playoff crowd.

The Tank Crowd isn't suggesting that the Jazz FO, coaches, and players try to lose games. That would be absurd. We are all just saying send a couple vets packing, get the young guys in there, and see what happens. If we win and go to the playoffs great, but if we dont then great too. You play the young guys knowing that you probably won't make the playoffs. You still encourage them to try to win. But arent afraid of not making the playoffs because a couple years in the lottery at this point won't hurt the franchise or development of the team but infact will probably help it.


Big difference between the Jazz purposely losing games and them losing games because they are playing their young talent that need to develop. I would argue that it is actually worse to have them ride the bench and watch other people play. Playoffs or not. I wouldn't say they shouldn't have some vets around them either but not a whole bunch that take up all the minutes.
 
BluesRocker said:
I think there is a whole lot of confusion about this argument between the tank crowd and playoff crowd.

The Tank Crowd isn't suggesting that the Jazz FO, coaches, and players try to lose games. That would be absurd. We are all just saying send a couple vets packing, get the young guys in there, and see what happens. If we win and go to the playoffs great, but if we dont then great too. You play the young guys knowing that you probably won't make the playoffs. You still encourage them to try to win. But arent afraid of not making the playoffs because a couple years in the lottery at this point won't hurt the franchise or development of the team but infact will probably help it.


Big difference between the Jazz purposely losing games and them losing games because they are playing their young talent that need to develop. I would argue that it is actually worse to have them ride the bench and watch other people play. Playoffs or not. I wouldn't say they shouldn't have some vets around them either but not a whole bunch that take up all the minutes.
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This is how I felt to start the season. A little late now.

But you have to know it "must" be one extreme or the other. If you don't want the team to win then you must be advocating the team losing on purpose. You can't possibly be advocating wishing the team had developed their young players at the risk of losing.
 
None?

SA did it thru the draft.

Does Detroit count as a small market and how did they get the guys they had when they beat the Malone Lakers?
 
theNBAnerd said:
how many teams PERIOD have had a FA come over to lead them to a championship? almost every title team was led there by a top-3 pick, not a FA.
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Maybe not lead by their own draft choices but they didnt get them via FA. Several were thru trades as well.

Laker trade for Gasol
Boston trade for Garnett
 
theNBAnerd said:
freak, those were two pretty crappy examples. minnesota eventually became an elite team and reached the conference finals, despite not being able to add players via the draft for several years. and using the knicks as an example of a team who was trying to "win now at all costs"?? what knicks have you been watching for the last decade and a half?

but on to the broader point... no, i'm not saying i would give up four lottery picks to get our guys some playoff experience, but at least now we're asking the right questions. my problem with 90% of the conversation around "should the jazz give up on their season" is that nobody fails to recognize that having a playoff-tested favors, a playoff-tested hayward, a playoff-tested burks, etc. IS IN FACT AN ASSET.

is it more of an asset than a 14th pick? than a 12th pick? than a 7th pick? than a 0.4% chance at the top pick? than multiple lottery picks? i'm not saying i have that calculus all shaped in my head... but i do know that recognizing the value of playoff experience is an asset is central to having a decent discussion about this, and too many posters are slow to recognize that THAT's what we're weighing here.

it's not pick 12-14 vs. no pick. if that were as simple as the decision was, then yeah, it's a no-brainer.

it's pick 12-14 vs. an opportunity to get our future core some experience they'll need the next 5 times they're battling in the postseason. i just think we should frame the argument right.
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How about our 4 lottery picks getting minimal playoff experience (4-5 games of limited minutes for everyone except Hayward. Paul and AJ will play 35 + minutes/game in a playoff series) or the 8 and 12-14 pick in a very deep draft with obvious needs of shooters and pg. We don't need to draft a superstar, but having 6 very solid young players for the future would be great.

Lets face it. This is the last chance for the Jazz. If they lose tonight, the playoffs are all but over, but if they win, they still have a decent chance. GS wont win many more and has 4 teams within 2 wins of catching them. I would rather have the picks this year. A win for GS will go a long way in keeping their lead on the other teams.
 
i think we already have 6+ very solid young players for the future. we'll probably keep either al or paul (hopefully paul) for at least the medium term future, and both those guys are 27. even devin is only 29. how many 20-year-olds do you want on one team?
 
Stoked said:
Maybe not lead by their own draft choices but they didnt get them via FA. Several were thru trades as well.

Laker trade for Gasol
Boston trade for Garnett
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lakers weren't led there by gasol, though. they were led they by their 1996 draft pick. granted, gasol (a 3rd overall pick) got them over the hump, but that makes my point, too: star players are pretty hard to come by in free agency.

i'll give you boston, since garnett is the guy who really changed their culture and turned them into title contenders... although technically paul pierce, boston's own lottery pick, was the finals MVP that year.
 
gregbroncs said:
This is how I felt to start the season. A little late now.

But you have to know it "must" be one extreme or the other. If you don't want the team to win then you must be advocating the team losing on purpose. You can't possibly be advocating wishing the team had developed their young players at the risk of losing.
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Huh?

How did you come to that conclusion after what I just said?

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO

I do NOT want the JAZZ to LOSE on PURPOSE. No, that's a negative, down with that idea, thumbs down, nope, and no way. Clear enough?

Im saying that if a GM actually knew what he was doing he should know what he has and just about how far they can go. He should know what he is putting on the court and be realistic about it. He should have set the team up so that Corbin would be forced to play a lot of the young guys. And they would try to win with all their heart. But as a GM you know they are too young to do anything right now. But if they did you would be upset about it either. I said right from the start that the Jazz were going to be a 14 seed in the lottery with this team. Looking pretty close. Now how did I know that? KOC should have know that this team wasn't going to contend and were going to be a fringe playoff team. So he should have continued what he started when he trade DWILL. BLOW the efffing thing up all the way. We already started over. Al and Paul aren't going to drag the rooks to no titles in the next couple years. This thing needs time to grow. The young guys arent going to be ready for a while so sit tight and be patient.

IM saying that as a GM you don't bury your high pick talent on the bench behind some over paid, not winning any championships, older players, that right now are just slightly better players than your young guys becuase they are older, inturn forcing the coach who you hired to play the older guys because he is on a short leash and only wants to win games right now.

So as a carefully thought out and planned attack on how you approach the next five years you know you are going to be a lottery team. Hopefully for just a couple years You set your team up for a PROPER rebuild. You don't run some mediocre players out there to put on some fake show. Like as if they are actually contending and the players you are playing will actually be around in two years. It feels like the Jazz are just trying to sell tickets now instead of thinking about the future.

And what if we do make the playoffs and miss out on some picks
What if GS is good next year and so are we and our picks are 22 and 21 and we get nobody good out of it? And we look back ten years from now and it was all the difference. Say we couldn't get over the hump because we were just short some talent.
 
i agree with blues. i'm totally comfortable with the "future is now" approach to letting the young guys win or lose games... just not ok with losing on purpose or adopting a mentality where losing is ok.

even back in february, i was saying that i'd rather miss the playoffs with favors, hayward, burks and kanter playing major roles... versus make the playoffs with al jefferson, josh howard and cj miles playing 40 mpg. those three just aren't a part of our long-term future.
 
theNBAnerd said:
lakers weren't led there by gasol, though. they were led they by their 1996 draft pick. granted, gasol (a 3rd overall pick) got them over the hump, but that makes my point, too: star players are pretty hard to come by in free agency.

i'll give you boston, since garnett is the guy who really changed their culture and turned them into title contenders... although technically paul pierce, boston's own lottery pick, was the finals MVP that year.
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So kobe led the lakers right? well he was actually a later pick in the draft.... goes to show just how important these picks this year could end up being.

Maybe we get a kobe type player just by losing a few more games this year.... Im ok with that
 
Nerd, I'm simply asking this. What data do you have that supports your theory that Hayward, Burks, Kanter and Favors getting likely swept or close to would have been more beneficial than waiting one year to make the playoffs? I think it's just that, a theory. You seem to act like its the most "duh" thing in all of sports but you'd have to do a well researched dissertation on even one NBA team to come close to proving what you're saying. Even then youd have to know the psychological make up of each young player on the team in question.

My theory? Accumulate the best players you can, when the gettin's good (this draft) will win you more games. My theory isn't hard to prove.

I won't discount that kind of experience or environment would really ever hurt, but there is no real evidence one way or the other. We just "think" it's good for them. I think being in the hunt alone and playing with urgency will do a lot of what you're saying. Again, never advocted tanking.
 
theNBAnerd said:
even back in february, i was saying that i'd rather miss the playoffs with favors, hayward, burks and kanter playing major roles... versus make the playoffs with al jefferson, josh howard and cj miles playing 40 mpg. those three just aren't a part of our long-term future.
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I agree with this, but then again I think most do.
 
your theory is actually quite easy to disprove. teams don't get good by consistently drafting in the lottery. much to the contrary, teams get good by getting 3-4 picks right, then surrounding that talent with role players who know their job.

OKC didn't stay in the lotto forever to stockpile talent. they drafted well in their three opportunities in the top 5 (KD, westbrook, harden) and then they went to work building around those three while the team gradually learned how to win in the regular season, the first round, the second round, etc.
 
My take on this whole thing isn't a one size fits all either. Our circumstances just point to going the drafting route.. when we got Deron things were much different. It all depends on what you already have and what direction you are headed.
 
I want the GS pick so I won't be sad if the Jazz lose. I want the kids to play more and that hasn't changed since the beginning of the year.
 
BluesRocker said:
My take on this whole thing isn't a one size fits all either. Our circumstances just point to going the drafting route.. when we got Deron things were much different. It all depends on what you already have and what direction you are headed.
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Yup, and we are in a great situation to draft a PG and another wing in the very deep 2012 draft. We need to take advantage of this opportunity, it won't come again.
 
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