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Deron to the Mavs...not so fast

One thing that everyone seems to be forgetting here, are the "leadership qualities" duron has....

He doesn't make teams better folks. He has become a toxin. He isn't a leader. He'll help ruin the team that he signs with this offseason. Especially if he's the (only) superstar on that team. I could see someone like Kobe keeping him in line. But I don't see Dirk able to keep him in line with his passive attitude. Or Lamarcus, who would rather be painting his nails rather than posting up.

So even if he wanted to come back here to Utah, I wouldn't touch him. Why? So he can undermine the coach just like he did before? Do we really want to have an Orlando Magic situation on our hands? So he can criticize moves that ship "his crew" outta town? Do we really want his entitled attitude back? Do we really want to overspend for a PG? Do we really want to see him get pissed and yell at Hayward again? Could you imagine, with our team as young as it is, Deron would on a nightly basis be yelling at Hayward, Burks, Favors, and Kanter..... Ohhh especially Kanter... "PUT THE MOTHER ****ING BALL UP! DON'T BRING IT DOWN FOR GUARDS TO STRIP IT! JUST DUNK IT! ****!"

No thanks.

Sign Dragic. Or roll with Harris. Or just get something out of the draft.

You're absolutely, 100 percent clueless about how the NBA works. I (among others) have explained in past threads how idiotic and clueless your line of thinking is, but I don't really have the energy to go into it all again. The short version is that Deron is no different from other NBA superstars (ALL of them) in his behavior, ego, etc, and that no NBA team ever wins without a superstar of that caliber. NBA teams deal with the diva behavior - at least, the ones who want to win deal with it.
 
The big reason he would want to go to Dallas basketball wise is Dirk.
But how much longer will he be a "superstar" high level player?

At least Deron knows that Cuban isn't afraid to do whatever it takes to get players. He knows he would be trying hard to build a team for him.
There is only so much you can do though with an aging superstar, and a salary cap.
 
You're absolutely, 100 percent clueless about how the NBA works. I (among others) have explained in past threads how idiotic and clueless your line of thinking is, but I don't really have the energy to go into it all again. The short version is that Deron is no different from other NBA superstars (ALL of them) in his behavior, ego, etc, and that no NBA team ever wins without a superstar of that caliber. NBA teams deal with the diva behavior - at least, the ones who want to win deal with it.

rriiigghhhtttt...

Cool story bro.

I'm sorry you spent two straight post in this thread defending Duron.

And here I thought all the Duron apologists had left this board to join the Nets board! silly me!
 
If Deron wants to win a title he has two options: stay in NJ and try to being someone to NJ to play with him. Howard is still a very real possibility. Or come back to Utah and hope Favors and Burks become his superstar allies.

That being said, can you imagine how credible Utah becomes if Deron comes back and we win a title? Utah becomes Green Bay overnight.
 
First of all, you don't even have your facts straight. They were 31-26 when he was traded. As for the Nets, no, they're not going to be worse than last year. Last year, in an 82-game season, they won 24 games. This year, in a 66-game season with 9 games left, they have 20 wins. Last year their winning percentage was .293. This year it's .351.

Get. Your. Facts. Right. Moron.

Second of all, you're just being deliberately obtuse. Last year's team had only been struggling for a month and you know it. In mid-January, they were 27-13 and one of the top teams in the NBA. YOU KNOW THIS. They were 27-13 despite Jefferson not getting off to a great start in Utah, despite getting almost nothing from their first-round pick up to that point, despite having no other guards or wings worth crap. (Do you remember last year's team? Boozer and Matthews gone. Okur hurt. Kirilenko past his prime. The disastrous signing of Raja Bell. Nothing from Hayward. Jefferson not fitting in. Williams and Millsap were the only bright spots. Again: They were 27-13.) You're essentially judging last year's team based solely on a chaotic one-month period during which Williams and Sloan were butting heads and Sloan eventually quit.

Oh, and do you remember what happened after Deron was traded? Of course you do. You're just playing dumb. The Jazz were 8-17 after the trade. You're also conveniently ignoring the previous 5 years, but I guess I can't really expect a more reasoned argument from you. You've proven yourself incapable of the task.

As for your original question, about what Deron is carrying. Once again, I ask you whether or not you've actually watched the Nets much this year, because I highly doubt it. I have watched the Nets. These are the facts: He has been their only offensive threat. Defenses are swallowing him up because they know he is the only offensive threat. Do you know the Nets' roster? They have one real player - Deron - and a bunch of players who have at best one skill. There's Kris Humphries, who's a great rebounder but doesn't do much else. There's Anthony Morrow, who's a great 3-point shooter but doesn't do much else. And those have been their second- and third-best players! The rest: Shelden Williams, Jordan Farmar, DeShawn Stevenson, Johan Petro, Damion James, Sundiata Gaines, Jordan Williams, Gerald Green (who has been out of the NBA for three years for god's sake), and MarShon Brooks, a promising rookie who nonetheless is still a rookie, and not especially adept at the NBA yet. Oh, and there's Brook Lopez, who's been injured for almost the entire season. (Five whole games!)

So yes, as I said in my original response, Deron is basically trying to do everything on a terrible, terrible team. When you're trying to carry the entire load like that (and when defenses are focusing all their attention on you), your shooting goes down and your turnovers go up. This is how it works. This is not difficult to understand.

I may have been a couple games off, but my argument still stands. If you want to extrapolate their win percentage this year to an 82 game season, it would mean they end up 5 games better. A max player has to be making a 15-20 game difference or you just grossly overpaid that player - and that is being nice. Lebron was a 40 game difference maker for the Cavs when he left.

I am not interested in cherry picking wins/losses from last year. Several indications were the early record was a fluke (miraculous comebacks, a borderline negative total point differential). The law of averages just caught up. The team was, for the most part, the same. AK was still solid and Miles was playing better last year than this. Despite a new coach, a new PG, and a revamped system, the Jazz have recovered in less than a year and no one seems to even miss Deron. You will see when the season ends the only GM's that pursue him are two or three teams whose owners who have no regard for the luxury tax. Watch and see (and learn).
 
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I may have been a couple games off, but my argument still stands. If you want to extrapolate their win percentage this year to an 82 game season, it would mean they end up 5 games better. A max player has to be making a 15-20 game difference or you just grossly overpaid that player - and that is being nice. Lebron was a 40 game difference maker for the Cavs when he left.

I am not interested in cherry picking wins/losses from last year. Several indications were the early record was a fluke (miraculous comebacks, a borderline negative total point differential). The law of averages just caught up. The team was, for the most part, the same. AK was still solid and Miles was playing better last year than this. Despite a new coach, a new PG, and a revamped system, the Jazz have recovered in less than a year and no one seems to even miss Deron. You will see when the season ends the only GM's that pursue him are two or three teams whose owners who have no regard for the luxury tax. Watch and see (and learn).

Oh my god, dude.

OK.

"No one seems to even miss Deron." Yeah, you're totally right. With this year's team + Deron, we would totally be exactly where we are now, outside the playoffs. Totally. You're totally right.

Because everything he's done in his career apparently counts for nothing - all that matters in your little brain is a one-month stretch in a transitional season in which he (you seem to conveniently forgotten) was carrying a team with a roster that was missing three crucial players from the previous season and whose pieces didn't fit yet. (An indisputable fact.)

As for a franchise player being required to make a 15-20 game difference to be considered a max player? Absurd. That's an arbitrary rule that you must made up. LeBron is an anomaly. He's probably the only player in the NBA that can make a 40-game difference - and even that's circumstantial. It's always circumstantial. Again, I'm assuming you know this, and are just playing dumb because it suits your short-sighted argument. Am I giving you too much credit?

When Michael Jordan retired in 1993, do you know how much of a dropoff the Chicago Bulls had the following year?

Two games. Two. Count 'em - TWO. They went from 57 wins to 55 wins. I guess that means Michael Jordan wasn't a franchise player. Let it be stated here, folks! "Jazz4ever" has a scoop! Michael Jordan wasn't a franchise player! Know why? Because he didn't make a 15-20 game difference! Logic, people! Logic!

As for your final point, about only 2-3 general managers that pursue him this offseason, OK, I'll bite. I'm still assuming you're bright enough to comprehend all this, but I'll spell out the argument anyway.

A) Only a few teams will have the resources to sign someone of Deron's caliber.

B) This has become a point guard-heavy league - many, many teams already have their point guards, and therefore wouldn't need to spend money on Deron.

C) Several other teams (Charlotte, etc) would never go after him because they're way, way too far away from building a legit team around him.

D) MOST marquee free agents only have a few suitors - for circumstantial reasons like those mentioned above. It's not like the Bulls would ignore Deron if he were a free agent and they didn't already have Derrick Rose.
 
If you have to make 4 factoid points why a team would not want to sign a max player, he is not worth the max. Your argument "B" of how many good PGs exist destroys your whole argument. Good point guards are not a scarce commodity, and it wouldn't be a prudent business decision to pay through the nose for a commodity. Econ 101. As for point "A", actually there are many teams with cap space this year. With the new amnesty clause, probably half the league could make cuts to get under the cap and try and sign Deron if he was really a superstar caliber player worth going after.....they won't.

The Bulls are a unique case because they had another top 50 player of all time, Pippen, and he was more than capable of handling a bigger work load. He had the best year of his career averaging 4 more points a game with no loss in effeciency. Kukoc and Kerr both arrived in 94 as well, who if you watched the Bulls, know were amazing in their system. They fell short in the playoffs. When Jordan returned in his first full year, playing with Pippen and Kukoc, they won 72 games and another championship.
 
Been reading the debate between anonymous and Jazz4ever and I'm trying to read it from an unbiased POV, but I am a Deron homer still and would love to get him back here with our big young 4 and have those 5 be our only players on the book going into the 2013/14 season. So naturally I agreeing with anonymous here, but Jazz4ever I just want to hear who you would consider max deal players. I no doubt would still consider Deron a max guy because he was the best player on (3) 50 win teams and sure he isn't a difference maker like Lebron/Wade/Kobe/Dwight/etc. that vein of players, but I think guys like a Deron who are good enough to lead their teams to good records and playoff success are deserving.
 
Been reading the debate between anonymous and Jazz4ever and I'm trying to read it from an unbiased POV, but I am a Deron homer still and would love to get him back here with our big young 4 and have those 5 be our only players on the book going into the 2013/14 season. So naturally I agreeing with anonymous here, but Jazz4ever I just want to hear who you would consider max deal players. I no doubt would still consider Deron a max guy because he was the best player on (3) 50 win teams and sure he isn't a difference maker like Lebron/Wade/Kobe/Dwight/etc. that vein of players, but I think guys like a Deron who are good enough to lead their teams to good records and playoff success are deserving.

Dwight, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Paul, Rose, Durant, Dirk, Duncan, KG (at the time)...off the top of my head. Deron has not improved much, by any metric, since his 4th season. His shot, especially the 3 ball, never became consistent. His rookie year remains his best year in that department. His turnovers have always been high compared to guys like Paul and Nash. His defense is average, at best, for his position. So that doesn't leave many categories to justify the max. Would he be great with the young guys? Maybe not as much as you think. Hayward certainly broke out after Deron left. Al played better as well. Sap remained about the same. Let's not forget Deron will be 28 by the time he starts his next contract, and the vast majority of all players begin steady declines at 30.
 
Dwight, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Paul, Rose, Durant, Dirk, Duncan, KG (at the time)...off the top of my head. Deron has not improved much, by any metric, since his 4th season. His shot, especially the 3 ball, never became consistent. His rookie year remains his best year in that department. His turnovers have always been high compared to guys like Paul and Nash. His defense is average, at best, for his position. So that doesn't leave many categories to justify the max. Would he be great with the young guys? Maybe not as much as you think. Hayward certainly broke out after Deron left. Al played better as well. Sap remained about the same. Let's not forget Deron will be 28 by the time he starts his next contract, and the vast majority of all players begin steady declines at 30.

Look at the Bulls' and Heat's record without Rose and Wade - obviously not max/franchise players either.
 
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