Deron to the Mavs...not so fast
- Thread starter Mr. McGibblets
- Start date
I missed something key. Teams >$4 million over the tax cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade, but AFTER 2013-'14. So yeah, I guess they might be able to.
Hayward broke out against the Clippers on December 29th. Unless you want to conveniently define your parameters for breakout. I'll tell you why I consider that his breakout game. He had never scored double-digits in a game to that point, and he hadn't scored at all in the first half. Halfway through the 3rd quarter, something happened, and he ended up scoring 17 points in the remaining time. His next two games he finished with double digits.
The hard truth with Hayward is that he was an awful NBA basketball player until one week before that night, where he scored 5 points down the stretch in a close game against the Timberwolves (which you could also say was a breakout game). Honestly, to that point, I am not sure I could say I have seen a less effective, plainly unready, and over-matched player. But that's Deron's fault too, I guess.
Al Jefferson didn't have a clue how to let other people help him score, or how to help others score. He's figured some of that out, but he's still just not a PnR big. That Al improved after all of this on a bad team tells you everything you should've already known about Al Jefferson and how important his contributions were to winning basketball.
Paul Millsap is the only player you mentioned out of the three (and the only one on the Jazz), that showed he could play (winning) basketball with any real consistency for the entire season.
anonymous832
Member
Uh....
Yeah, I really think you must have misunderstood your Econ 101 class - or in this case, certainly misappropriated the logic of it. It does not fit in this situation. Good point guards are not scarce, that is true - but in sports, if anything, that can make them MORE valuable. If a league is being dominated by point guards, you're WAY behind the 8-ball if you don't have a good one. Unless, of course, you have a huge advantage at other positions (like the Heat, who have arguably the two best wings in the league, both of whom need the ball in their hands), or run a system that doesn't rely as much on the point guard (i.e. the triangle).
For teams that have good (but not necessarily elite) point guards and more pressing needs elsewhere (i.e. the Rockets)? Yes, you're right - they'd be better off spending their money elsewhere. But that has to do with a specific team's needs - not a player's overall value.
And even the scarcity you spoke of is relative. Do you know how many elite point guards are available this summer?
Two (2). That's it. And one of them (Nash) is 38.
Let's transplant your logic to the NFL. By your logic, if Drew Brees were to become a free agent (in what is currently a league with a huge number of strong quarterbacks), it would not be "prudent" for the Saints (or anyone) to give him a max contract. So, in your mind, they'd be better off...what, going with an inferior quarterback instead of paying a few extra mil per year? Is that what you'd advise if you were running the show?
Let's play a game. You tell me one team (I only need one!) that needs a point guard, and that has everything a marquee PG on the free agent market would be looking for - 1) a roster built to win or and/or a foundation/budget to build that roster; 2) significant salary cap space; 3) and this is debatable, but I'll say a decent-sized market counts as well - that will consciously decide to NOT go after Deron this summer. Just give me ONE TEAM.
Give me one team that fits that description (aside from the Jazz, of course) who - if they were told that Deron Williams wanted to sign with them - would actually say no, and wouldn't give him a max deal.
I'll make it easier for you. There isn't one.
Correct! Which proves exactly what I was saying - that someone's "value" to one team is completely circumstantial. Your made-up, bulls**t standard of "to be a max player, you have to make 15-20 game difference" is still made-up bulls**t. The difference a player makes on one team always depends on the circumstances of the team he leaves or joins. ALWAYS.
If you honestly believe that if right now, Deron joined this version of the Utah Jazz, the Jazz wouldn't be dramatically superior than they are right now...well, then I don't know what to tell you. Because if you don't believe he'd make a huge difference, you're a genuinely delusional individual.
Thank you, Dwill4mvp.
anonymous832
Member
From his first full season (2006-07) through this season, Deron's turnover numbers are as follows: 3.1, 3.4, 3.4, 3.3, 3.5, 3.9
Nash's turnover numbers through that same stretch: 3.8, 3.6, 3.4, 3.6, 3.5, 3.5
See, it would be a lot easier to respect you if you didn't keep getting CATEGORICALLY PROVEN WRONG. Poor logic (or non-logic) is one thing, but you're too lazy to even check your facts.
As for Paul - yes, he's always been safer with the ball than Deron. Deron is too wild with the ball sometimes. That much is true.
But it amuses me that you pick apart certain aspects of Deron's game while, in practically the same breath, listing Derrick Rose as a max player. Rose is an even more erratic shooter than Deron, isn't NEARLY as good a passer, and is a worse defender.
Wrong again. Watch Rose or Nash play defense and then get back to me.
First of all, you made that up.
Secondly, that depends on position (centers decline more rapidly, especially after about the age of 32). Third, it has as much or more to do with total games played - the overall mileage - than actual age. Fourth, taking everything into account and looking at history (particularly recent history), 27-32 is probably the peak for the majority of NBA stars (a slight decline in full physical capability but a significant advantage in basketball IQ, experience, etc.), meaning anyone who signed Deron to a max deal (which would be 4-5 years), would be getting the entirety of the rest of his prime. And that's not including the many good years he will likely have after the age of 32. Look over the league and look at how many elite players are in their 30s. No, really - go ahead. Look.
Oh, and he's only one year older than Jazz4ever-anointed max player Chris Paul - and Deron's way more physically equipped to have longevity than Paul is. By a longshot.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
^^ Steve Nash is 38! In his prime, Deron's age, Nash was well under 3. That was implied, but it looks like you'll use anything to make a case at this point. What's sad is Nash at 38 is better than Deron at 27.
As for Rose, he doesn't need to rely on traditional PG skills because he is a freak. The most athletic player to every play the position. Perhaps you weren't watching but his domination of Deron was the straw that broke the camels back between him and Sloan. Did you really say Deron is a better defender than Rose? It's not even close. Rose holds his opponents to 11 PER, Williams "holds" then to 17. Thats a quick and dirty metric, but going by advanced synergy ratings, he is #1 and #2 on most everything for his position.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...every-starting-point-guard-in-the-nba/page/35
It seems you don't really have anything concrete besides a mancrush and nostalgia going for you here.
As for Rose, he doesn't need to rely on traditional PG skills because he is a freak. The most athletic player to every play the position. Perhaps you weren't watching but his domination of Deron was the straw that broke the camels back between him and Sloan. Did you really say Deron is a better defender than Rose? It's not even close. Rose holds his opponents to 11 PER, Williams "holds" then to 17. Thats a quick and dirty metric, but going by advanced synergy ratings, he is #1 and #2 on most everything for his position.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...every-starting-point-guard-in-the-nba/page/35
It seems you don't really have anything concrete besides a mancrush and nostalgia going for you here.
BluesRocker
Banned
Deron is one of my favorite players of all time. I dont care about what his numbers are or were. I hold no grudge against him and I believe he still has it too. His numbers are just down because the way Deron handles things and the situation. I GUARANTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! that he will ball out his mind again if he gets on a good team again.
I know what I saw when I watched him. When things were clicking it was very good basketball. The guy knows how to win.
You all seen it too, but some of you are just haters.
I know what I saw when I watched him. When things were clicking it was very good basketball. The guy knows how to win.
You all seen it too, but some of you are just haters.
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
This post is a little unfair.
First of all, a little above 3 TOs a game is not bad for guys that dominate the ball. Also Deron has not been nearly the defender he was ever since he decided to break with Sloan. Deron under Sloan was a very good defensive PG. Seriously. Since then Deron went south with defying his HOF coach, crying to refs constantly, mailing it in, you name it. Deron has been very unimpressive since his Utah coup.
I'm sure you will reply with the obvious argument that these things matter and the stats don't lie. That's true. However Deron is special. If and when he goes to a real team with real talent you will see the real Deron again. What DWill has that very few other players have is an unquenchable thirst for not losing. I have only seen 2 players in a Jazz uniform that hated losing more.
Deron Williams will win again. Not for Utah but he will.
Weezur
Well-Known Member
I can't remember who posted this, but I remember reading on Jazzfanz that someone said Deron's wife wanted to move to a quite place like Utah.
So those two thing kinda go hand in hand, .......