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Why I think being a Muslim is rational.

Hantlers said:
WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH. So you're telling me that when Christian's get killed in Muslim countries because they aren't Islamic, it's their fault for not being Islamic? Well alright, I guess that sounds reasonable to me.
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Tell me where it says in the Qur'an to kill Christians? Hindu's? Atheists? Polytheists? People who leave Islam? Gays?

I can tell you where it says that in the Bible.
 
Dalamon, I think despite my harsh tone earlier, we do agree on most issues. But you must try to understand my general problem with religion, and Islam in particular. We've talked about it before, and it would take a bit long to elaborate at any length. I also touched on it in my debate with AtheistPreacher. But the problem with religion is precisely the fact you can interpret it in any way you wish.

Do you think the leaders of Al Qaeda know less about Islam than you? They are very well versed in Islamic theology, history, philosophy and all other aspects. They can justify their position from the Quran and tradition just as well as you can. Additionally, the religious cannot be persuaded by logic or reason (unless it fits with their religious view). Bin Laden will think his view of Islam is the most pure. He would argue that your view is the unfortunate twisting of the world of Allah. How can you think something with such vague and transient philosophy can really be the work of an entity as incredible as the one you claim?

That is why Islam scares me. There is no predicting what may happen. Maybe your version of Islam will prevail, and the growing Muslim population will continue humanity's current path toward a better society. But it is likely that the backward interpretation will win out. Just as it is likely that the Arab Spring will actually result in radical Muslims taking over and making the situation worse. With the full blessing of the public.

And you can go to a believer and try to convince him that, say, covering a woman from head to toe is not in the spirit of Islam. You'll throw verses, Hadiths, and scholarly interpretations at one another, and you may come out on top. But in reality, we are perfectly capable of deciding what is good and what is bad on our own. The whole process of apologetics and interpretation is redundant. You cannot simply go to a Muslim and say "you shouldn't have a say on whether a woman covers her face in public, regardless of what your Quran says". You have to win them over to your interpretation before you proceed with secular logic.

For some reason, I feel certain kinship to you. You are an intelligent young Muslim. But more importantly, you're a good person. Religion is wasted on good people.

Thank you for the conversation. I enjoyed it as always. :)
 
SiroMar said:
Dalamon, I think despite my harsh tone earlier, we do agree on most issues. But you must try to understand my general problem with religion, and Islam in particular. We've talked about it before, and it would take a bit long to elaborate at any length. I also touched on it in my debate with AtheistPreacher. But the problem with religion is precisely the fact you can interpret it in any way you wish.

Do you think the leaders of Al Qaeda know less about Islam than you? They are very well versed in Islamic theology, history, philosophy and all other aspects. They can justify their position from the Quran and tradition just as well as you can. Additionally, the religious cannot be persuaded by logic or reason (unless it fits with their religious view). Bin Laden will think his view of Islam is the most pure. He would argue that your view is the unfortunate twisting of the world of Allah. How can you think something with such vague and transient philosophy can really be the work of an entity as incredible as the one you claim?

That is why Islam scares me. There is no predicting what may happen. Maybe your version of Islam will prevail, and the growing Muslim population will continue humanity's current path toward a better society. But it is likely that the backward interpretation will win out. Just as it is likely that the Arab Spring will actually result in radical Muslims taking over and making the situation worse. With the full blessing of the public.

And you can go to a believer and try to convince him that, say, covering a woman from head to toe is not in the spirit of Islam. You'll throw verses, Hadiths, and scholarly interpretations at one another, and you may come out on top. But in reality, we are perfectly capable of deciding what is good and what is bad on our own. The whole process of apologetics and interpretation is redundant. You cannot simply go to a Muslim and say "you shouldn't have a say on whether a woman covers her face in public, regardless of what your Quran says". You have to win them over to your interpretation before you proceed with secular logic.

For some reason, I feel certain kinship to you. You are an intelligent young Muslim. But more importantly, you're a good person. Religion is wasted on good people.

Thank you for the conversation. I enjoyed it as always. :)
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Yes, I remember you making this point to me last time as well. Unfortunately, it's just one of those tiny quirks about religion that I will never quite understand, or know what to do about them. I completely see where you're coming from, though. You yourself are certainly intelligent to say the least, and a person that I hold deep respect for. Thank you for the compliments :) And the conversation as well. But really, same applies to you (except for the Muslim part- haha)
 
PPS: I Have noticed that you have edited much of your original post- nice try. I still have most of it quoted.
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Cool story bra. But I had all my edits done within minutes of my post. And the edits were done to insert the Jim Carey pic and a few spelling errors. I was merely being rational. Trust me, your garbage wouldn't "intimidate" me into editing my post. That's not rational.

I still don't see how Muslims are rational. In fact, they're probably the least rational people on the face of the earth. Just look at how garbage most of the ME/N. Africa is. Most Islamic countries are complete crapholes of countries. No rights for women, widespread violence, poverty, etc.

Worshiping some cube while calling for "death to the Great Satan" isn't exactly rational.

Also, in response to the bolded part of your message, I am willing to place a hefty wager that more people have died due to Christian intolerance of other faiths, than Islamic intolerance to other faiths.
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Cool story bra. When you can't rely on actual data you can always rely on anecdotal data.

I am contemplating putting that as my sig.
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Do whatever you wish. It's a free message board. That's rational. Unlike most Islamic countries.

Once again, I repeat:

I say, the USA needs to cut off all handouts to these dumbass Islamic ME countries and let them (rationally) tear each other apart. I grow weary of our tax dollars being wasted by the billions to make irrational punkasses like Karzai rich. And then these punks trash talk us while stretching out their hands waiting for handouts.

Eventually, babies need to graduate from diapers to pampers. Let Afghanistan take dumps in its own diapers and stink up the place. Let them and about 5 other ME countries sink or swim on their own. USA cannot police, fund, build, educate, etc every single ME country.
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I grow tired of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc all crying for handouts and essentially blackmailing us. If we don't meet x demands, someone scary will overrun their country, kill many, threaten Israel, shutdown the oil, and/or obtain a Nuke to use against us. It's not rational and it's costing us billions.

Time to graduate from your diapers and move onto Pampers. If Pakistan fails, let it. If punkass Karzai cannot survive without US gov handouts, then let him fail and be beheaded by his Taliban brothers. If Iraq cannot unify, then let it fail and be broken up into 3 different countries (one for the Sunnis, one for the Kurds, and one for the Shiites). Let these rational ME countries crap their own pants for a while (without having us rush over to wipe their asses).

Ah yes, and don't even get me started on how rational it is that Muslims kill each other. As if god would really favor Sunnis over the Shiites... sigh... And would justify killing each other... Genius.... So rational...

In order for these pathetic countries to grow,they need to be let alone to fail. Great Britain kept them afloat... And now we have... Eventually, they gotta grow up!

Perhaps if they were made to fail or succeed by their own merit, they would become more rational?

PS Just to let you know... I posted this at 9:37... And have edited it... It's now 9:42... Any further edits will be rationally made and I will rationally post their times so that you know. Ok? Because your posting intimidated me so much so I had to make my post more PC... Or something.. Or whatever you were inferring...
 
dalamon said:
You're definitely exaggerating this. If it was bad as you say it is, how do you even explain the mere existence of different groups of faiths other than Islam existing throughout the Arabian peninsula, as well as Turkey, and the Muslim-dominant balkan countries?

I am fully aware that it wasn't as friendly as it was on paper, but it was definitely more progressive than other nations of its time.

https://www.fravahr.org/spip.php?article31
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I'm not saying it was bad or good. My point is there was nothing progressive about what the Ottomans did with/for Jews as revisionist Western apologists want us to believe. Ottomans followed empire building 101 as had been practiced for a couple thousand years already. Stable, expanding, prosperous empires have the ability to assume populations willing to submit as second class citizens, pay tribute, and provide children to become soldiers. It's beneficial to the empire to give refugees some land tracts you're not using and let them provide wealth and children for your military campaigns while you try to do what Islam set out to do--subdue the world.

The Christianity using empire builders weren't stable enough to allow minority populaces because they have a tendency of rebelling. Islam had already crushed the pagans and apostates through centuries earlier campaigns so allowing Jews and Christians as second class citizens wasn't a big deal. The polytheists weren't so lucky under "religiously tolerant" Islam though. Neither were the Armenians who were forced into exile as would be expected from a declining empire.
 
The Thriller said:
I don't see how a religion that denies women (any) rights, has them marry their rapists, beheads others, celebrates two towers crashing down with thousands of innocents dying, and is ultimately just completely intolerant of anything else can be considered "rational."

(Some) Muslims might be rational.

Islam itself? Completely irrational, violent, and probably does much more harm than good. How many more folks need to perish because of Islam's intolerance and demands to kill infidels before we can admit that Islam is pretty jacked up? How many more women need to be raped (and then forced into marriage with that person)? Where were all those Muslims protesting Osama Bin Laden? Was there any peep from (any) Muslim when that school of little kids was attacked?

I keep hearing how Muslims are rational and tolerant. Yet... Whenever Americans, Jews, or Christians are blown away, I never see any "protest." If anything, I see an increase in cheering, more American flags being burned, and shouts of how great Allah is.

Also, gotta love Mohammad. Man of God who beheaded thousands for not converting.... Definitely sounds rational... Oh, and your salvation is dependent upon praying and touching some meteorite protecting by a black cube?

Yeahhh... Definitely makes sense... Completely rational...

image11.jpg


I say, the USA needs to cut off all handouts to these dumbass Islamic ME countries and let them (rationally) tear each other apart. I grow weary of our tax dollars being wasted by the billions to make irrational punkasses like Karzai rich. And then these punks trash talk us while stretching out their hands waiting for handouts.

Eventually, babies need to graduate from diapers to pampers. Let Afghanistan take dumps in its own diapers and stink up the place. Let them and about 5 other ME countries sink or swim on their own. USA cannot police, fund, build, educate, etc every single ME country.
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Wow... Where to begin on this train wreck? Have you ever read the Qur'an? Ever taken any religion classes? Ever read a book about Islam? No? Shocking. What is the most interesting thing about your rant here, to me, is the fact that you're a Mormon and have long had to deal with idiots from all points of the globe acting exactly the same way you are. All one needs to do is go read some of the Spurs boards to see what I'm talking about: Joseph Smith using a magic rock inside of a hat. All of our 14 wives. Warren Jeffs as our leader. BoM inaccuracies. Blacks and the priesthood. Etc., etc., etc. Way to be tolerant and educated, Thriller -- you're a great ambassador for Utah and Mormons the world over.

The Thriller said:
Cool story bra. But I had all my edits done within minutes of my post. And the edits were done to insert the Jim Carey pic and a few spelling errors. I was merely being rational. Trust me, your garbage wouldn't "intimidate" me into editing my post. That's not rational.

I still don't see how Muslims are rational. In fact, they're probably the least rational people on the face of the earth. Just look at how garbage most of the ME/N. Africa is. Most Islamic countries are complete crapholes of countries. No rights for women, widespread violence, poverty, etc.

Worshiping some cube while calling for "death to the Great Satan" isn't exactly rational.



Cool story bra. When you can't rely on actual data you can always rely on anecdotal data.



Do whatever you wish. It's a free message board. That's rational. Unlike most Islamic countries.

Once again, I repeat:



I grow tired of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc all crying for handouts and essentially blackmailing us. If we don't meet x demands, someone scary will overrun their country, kill many, threaten Israel, shutdown the oil, and/or obtain a Nuke to use against us. It's not rational and it's costing us billions.

Time to graduate from your diapers and move onto Pampers. If Pakistan fails, let it. If punkass Karzai cannot survive without US gov handouts, then let him fail and be beheaded by his Taliban brothers. If Iraq cannot unify, then let it fail and be broken up into 3 different countries (one for the Sunnis, one for the Kurds, and one for the Shiites). Let these rational ME countries crap their own pants for a while (without having us rush over to wipe their asses).

Ah yes, and don't even get me started on how rational it is that Muslims kill each other. As if god would really favor Sunnis over the Shiites... sigh... And would justify killing each other... Genius.... So rational...

In order for these pathetic countries to grow,they need to be let alone to fail. Great Britain kept them afloat... And now we have... Eventually, they gotta grow up!

Perhaps if they were made to fail or succeed by their own merit, they would become more rational?

PS Just to let you know... I posted this at 9:37... And have edited it... It's now 9:42... Any further edits will be rationally made and I will rationally post their times so that you know. Ok? Because your posting intimidated me so much so I had to make my post more PC... Or something.. Or whatever you were inferring...
Click to expand...


Cool story bra. When you can't rely on actual data you can always rely on anecdotal data.

I don't see how a religion that denies women (any) rights, has them marry their rapists, beheads others, celebrates two towers crashing down with thousands of innocents dying, and is ultimately just completely intolerant of anything else can be considered "rational."

Islam itself? Completely irrational, violent, and probably does much more harm than good.

Whenever Americans, Jews, or Christians are blown away, I never see any "protest." If anything, I see an increase in cheering, more American flags being burned, and shouts of how great Allah is.

Oh, and your salvation is dependent upon praying and touching some meteorite protecting by a black cube?

I still don't see how Muslims are rational. In fact, they're probably the least rational people on the face of the earth.

That's rational. Unlike most Islamic countries.
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You're a walking parody. Please, shut the F up.

Regards,

TroutBum
 
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