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Flat Tax and Tithing

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Question: You have $1MM to invest and you must invest into the stock of one of two companies. The first one is profitable and clearly run well and efficiently. The second is not. Which do you invest in? How do you feel when you're told you HAVE to invest your hard-earned money into the second option? Of course those are rhetorical questions.

If your second company is supposed to represent the government, then we'll politely disagree on relative efficiency. The reason the government is not profitable is because it is not allowed to charge for it's services according to their costs. Instead, it is instructed by fiat to produce X services with a tax base of Y.

I've seen millions spent on a software design initiative, only to be scrapped for another million-dollar initiative two years later, only to be scrapped again after a merger two years later. This was in one department at Anthem, but I've heard of similar things in various departments at all sorts of private companies. There is a lot of randomness in whom the free market rewards.

The VA has horrible administrative efficiency, the IRS and SSA have high administrative efficiency (as a comparison of administrative dollar to amount of money moved). Naturally, the former gets headlines.

My thing is I get investing into America. Into education, R&D, infrastructure, the poor, military.. it's a necessary investment to make and one I fully support (the alternative would be stupid, no?). I just want my money being invested into a smart company/government. Will that day ever come? Extremely doubtful. Politicians will still fight over the raising or lowering of taxes .. and I'll still be bitching about waste.

I agree with investment, and with fighting waste. I just don't think "let the private sector do it" will be a waste-fighting solution.
 
Those companies do not force us to hand over our money under threat of imprisonment. They can be however wasteful they want with their own money. If they're not efficient enough they'll go out of business and be replaced by a company that doesn't waaste.

On the other hand, they can be very wasteful without being "wasteful enough".

Companies also are not forced to use fixed prices for their products.
 
On the other hand, they can be very wasteful without being "wasteful enough".

Companies also are not forced to use fixed prices for their products.

Absolutely. I think you're missing the part where the government uses force to coerce us to pay them. It's not a voluntary arrangement. When I buy a product I'm making a choice.
 
If your second company is supposed to represent the government, then we'll politely disagree on relative efficiency. The reason the government is not profitable is because it is not allowed to charge for it's services according to their costs. Instead, it is instructed by fiat to produce X services with a tax base of Y.

I've seen millions spent on a software design initiative, only to be scrapped for another million-dollar initiative two years later, only to be scrapped again after a merger two years later. This was in one department at Anthem, but I've heard of similar things in various departments at all sorts of private companies. There is a lot of randomness in whom the free market rewards.

The VA has horrible administrative efficiency, the IRS and SSA have high administrative efficiency (as a comparison of administrative dollar to amount of money moved). Naturally, the former gets headlines.



I agree with investment, and with fighting waste. I just don't think "let the private sector do it" will be a waste-fighting solution.

I was not implying that the 2nd company is the government.. but it's immaterial.

If what you and I are debating, in your mind, is whether we should allow the public sector "to do it", then we may very well be in closer agreement. I was simply arguing for more focus on cost-cutting. Btw, cost-cutting does not automatically imply program cutting (though I feel there are many that need cut).. I am happy to start by leaving ALL programs in place, but search better/cheaper methods of running them.

Most of my gripes stem from budget issues. The 'use it or lose it' without considerations for cyclical aspects of various initiatives. I hate seeing, on a daily basis, branches of government scrambling to spend money so they don't get their budgets reduced under the next review. It's maddening.

One such example I gave was a very good friend of mine invented thermoplastic and pioneered its application to road striping (vs paint). He proved that though it costs 3x more than paint, it last nearly 10x longer. So he was an overnight multi-millionaire and his factory was supplying thermoplastic for roads across the U.S.

Within 3 years he's was getting orders for the same highways he had already provided product for. He made the calls to question and was told the lines had faded. Not believing it (and taking pride in his work) he went to one of the highways and using his reflectometer deduced that the lines were still more than 2x the required reflectivity.

He pushed and was finally told that the savings wasn't wanted, that they didn't want a lower budget, but haven't yet figured what to spend the money on. He said he got these calls on a weekly basis and the dollars had to have been into the hundred's of millions annually.

That's ONE example of dozens that drive me nuts.

My complaint of raising taxes is because if that ... and, frankly, I resent being told (not by you) that if I am not willing to pay more in taxes it means I do not support the idea of helping those in need. I want to help them MORE.
 
Absolutely. I think you're missing the part where the government uses force to coerce us to pay them. It's not a voluntary arrangement. When I buy a product I'm making a choice.

I agree government is different in that regard. I'm just pointing out that inefficiency is a function of size, not government vs. private.
 
With a family of seven, in 2005, I didn't receive that much in food stamps. I agree that's very generous (unless you live in Alaska or Hawaii, anyhow).

We were in Philly. It was nuts. Students were getting all their windows replaced for free, new heaters/water coolers, doors, the whole nine yards. Buy a older home, have the gov't fix it up, then flip it when you graduated.
 
Every major city offers tax incentive programs. Philadelphia is no exception.

https://business.phila.gov/pages/ta...stitem=tax credits, grants & other incentives

However, companies generally prefer building on land where there have not been prior industrial activity (fewer pollutants). Wages will be much lower in third-world countries than even the US minimum wage. This makes is difficult for any city to attract factories from major corporations.

Did you know that if you work in Philadelphia, but live outside of the city limits, there is an additional tax you have to pay?
 
I'd like to address poverty at the community, rather than national, level.

I am not a typical right-winger.. I care about those that are suffering. I also have a great disdain for the idea that we should all be equal. I believe in equal opportunity.. but not equalling out the results of individual efforts.

I've literally never heard a single American champion this, yet it's thrown around as some common fallacy of the left. By raise of hands, who believes in equality of outcome? Chirp, chirp.

So, sincere question.. how do you propose we have everyone have equal opportunities (as you've described above) without equalling out individual efforts/incomes? Where do you draw the line? Why stop at fruit and protein for breakfast? How is it equal opportunity for a job if my dad buys me a nice suit, buys me a nice car, gets me a great haircut, helps me with a professional resume, that resume includes an MBA from Georgetown........

Where is the line drawn?

My fear of stretching equality to far is removing the incentive of entreprenuers to have individual success. Maybe I'm wrong and the country would be fine.. but it frightens me.. and would whether I'm rich or poor. Btw, if I didn't have a job and I was told I could get one as long as I gave my blessing to the government to reward some random guy for starting a new company in my town... I'd be all for it.

Good point. I think we should keep the necessities up with modern times. Food, water, shelter in the agrarian times. Basic telephone on a welfare to work basis when one is necessary to get a job interview.

Besides, while you're worried about all these poor blowing their money, their spending is good for your companies.

I don't often agree with One Brow on social issues, but I do here. I am completely against a flat tax structure for this same reason. Now should the current tax rules be changed? Almost certainly. But a flat tax is not the answer.

So was the founding of America, but conservative groups want to re-write history.


I love Canada more and more with each passing day

Amen. I've given two minutes of thought to moving there. But you dip****s don't allow guns so it's not for me.

So which part entails the injustice, wealthy people being able to have things they want above and beyond their needs or poor people not being able to have much beyond what they need to live?

If wealthy people having things they want is not an injustice in and of itself then they don't deserve to be penalized for it. Also, if that's an injustice then there is no problem with the poor, they're living exactly the way a person ought to live.

If the problem is that poor people don't have things they want, the solution is not to take it away from someone else and give it to them.

Old British royalty would have made the exact same argument for their serfdom. Wealth redistribution is not only about addressing poverty. It is a necessary mechanism to ensure a vibrant capitalistic economy. The biggest penalty to the wealthy class would be not redistributing wealth and thus starving their customer bases. That's why they love social security so much: the money ends up in their pockets. You want to fix outrageous spending then make the wealthy and well connected pay for it. Then they'll lobby to fix the spending binge.

Colton, what should be changed, then? What is the "fair" amount that should be taxed for different levels? Why exactly is it harder for the $10k earner to pay 10% and how do you quantify that? Is it easier for the $100k earner to pay $30k in taxes than for the $70k earner to pay $1k?

We have democracy and elected officials to make these decisions. Why should Colton or anyone else be nailed to the cross over an opinion on what's fair? No one knows exactly what's fair, but the collection of society's opinions will still decide.
 
I find it interesting that "liberal" ideas have been described as "bankrupting" this country (and many others).

So using this logic, "conservative" ideas of military spending, 2 wars, tax cuts, and deregulation of the financial sector are the "saviors" to our country? Suddenly, the debt accumulated from this past decade is the result of food stamps, welfare programs, and pell grants NOT defense spending, 2 wars, tax cuts, and the deregulation of the private sector?

So in order to fix the USA, we should actually cut taxes even more, spend even more in defense, and maybe even invade another country or two?

Is there an economist (not employed by foxnews) that believes that this is the answer?

2 wars - Obama took us from 2 to 4.

Tax cuts??? This is where liberals are just wrong. Tax cuts don't cost the government anything, because it doesn't start off as their money.

Cutting taxes will definitely help, but that brings us back to the REAL problem:

SPENDING IS TOO HIGH.

Tax hikes DO NOTHING.

Until politicians (on both sides) are ready to make REAL, LARGE CUTS, then we are all just wasting our breath.
 
Also, it was CONSERVATIVES who came up with the Earned Income Tax Credit as a market based mechanism to reduce poverty and create welfare-to-work incentives.

The San Fransisco Fed put out a paper a year or so ago that's shown this program has been very effective in helping single mothers get back into the labor force.

Why in the hell are conservatives so damn dead set about ending something they created and having no income baseline that's tax free?

Yeah, it's not perfect and people will always game it; that's why we elect officials to keep the regulations up with the times.

But "regulation" causes allergies, apparently.
 
I love how every whines about healthcare and regulation, passes Obamacare then whines some more when healthcare costs go up.

Did you guys know that it is ok for Health Insurance companies to get together, decide what they will pay for/not pay for, then release similar plans, so we are stuck with the crap they give us?

Did you also know that if all the doctors banded together and decided to drop those plans from their Provider lists, they would be committing felonies?

The government/politicians are all liars and are not in it for us. Not a single one. Even Mike Lee ran on the whole tea part platform and anti-bailouts, then as soon as he wins, he short sells his home, in essence getting a bailout from the gov't.

The corruption is deep, and they convince us to argue about tax hikes/cuts, when they are irrelevant. No tax hike or cut will put a dent in our problems.
 
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