Was Fes' Play Last Night An Aberration?
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Hopper
Banned
I think you misunderstand the point of my posts. Although I have made a few passing, general references to Fess and his skill-set (includin the statement that I am optimistic about his future in the league), at no time has my intention been to crictically assess the precise value (or lack thereof) of Fess in past seaons.
I am simply questioning the line of reasoning S2 has often advanced in the past as confused and invalid. If S2 simply wants to say that Fess is a much better player than Sloan realizes, fine. My own damn self, I trust Jer's knowledge and assessment of the situation more than S2's, but that's just a side issue.
I don't agree with the claim that Sloan PREVENTED Fess from improving by not playin him when he wasn't deemed ready to play. Fess, or anyone else, can get better without playin in games. That aint the sine qua non of improvement, as S2 explicitly suggests when he says it is a "necessary condition" of improvement.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Um, Hopper, that's what I've been saying all along. I believe that I have stated (and when not, it could have been easily inferred) that Sloan had underrated him. But it wasn't just because Fes had shown signs of promise (better build than Osterblob, at least modestly better agility than Okur or Boozer, opponents' shot selection when he's on the court however), but because the alternative didn't "deserve" (a term thrown around here) by their performance to be out there at times. I wasn't being greedy; I was lobbying for an average 10 minutes per available game or so. That's around the bare minimum that is necesary to evaluate whether a player "deserves" more.
Um, Sloan controls the minutes, so Sloan did prevent him. If Fes had been more disciplined off the court, then Sloan probably would have played him more readily. I place the blame on the two of them, but Slaon is the one with more experience. IMHO, given the utter disaster that has been Utah's interior defense over the past seasons, Sloan should've given whomever they had extra minutes. Instead, he used the Harpring criteria or Collins criteria for playing players: if you work hard in practice, then I'll play you, even if you are not the best option on the court.
You're smarter than this Hopper--or you have the same Puritan biases where hard work is paramount and results come secondary.
Hopper
Banned
I remember a game a few years ago in, New Jersey, I think, early in the season. I think the Jazz were 6-0 and Boozer was having a great offensive game-- 16 pts on 7-10 shooting, or sumthin. Apparently Sloan wasn't satifisfied with his defensive effort and benched his *** in the 4th quarter. The Jazz ended up losing a very close game, and the board went nutz screaming about Sloan not playing "their best player."
Since then, many have suggested that Sloan should bench Boozer for his lack of defensive effort if for no other reason than to "send a message" that half-assed effort is unacceptable. Which is it, I wonder?
At the time, I argued that Sloan had probably done the best thing, long-term, all things considered. It is a poor message to send to the team as a whole to accept lackadaisical effort just because there is some compensation elsewhere. As soon as you tell a guy like Fess that a nonchalant, inconsistent approach to the game is quite satisfactory because he's still the best you have (assuming even that he is), you've lost the war, even if you win a battle.
Hopper
Banned
In a similar vein, many have complained that Sloan didn't play Williams more as a rookie, includin Deron.
On the one hand, Deron has since said that he "hated" Sloan his first year, and felt they could have made the playoffs if he (Williams) had played more. On the other hand, he has often also said that the whole experience made him a better player in the long run and was ultimately a benefit for him.
For his part, Sloan has conceded that he "probably screwed (Deron) up some," with his strategy, but he has explained that he thought it was important for Williams to earn his playin time and not just have it handed to him because he was the third pick in the draft. He had, of course, seen where a prima donna attitude can lead (with AK).
Five years later, Deron is clearly one of, if not the, best point guard(s) in the league. He busted his *** in the off-season after his first year and came back determined to prove his worth, which he certainly did, from the git-go, his second year.
Sloan has been around a long time and seen a lot of things. From what I can tell, he often takes a long-term perspective in preference to a strictly short-term view, and is willing so sacrifice some things now if he thinks it will lead to a much greater return later. All a matter of judgment and calculated risk, of course, and anyone can play monday-mornin quarterback with any decision Sloan (or any other coach) makes. That's cheap and easy.
Sloan, unlike some coaches, and unlike most fans, tends to look at the "big picture" and retain abiding faith in certain things he values. He has integrity and is honest. He aint devious and don't play games. Sloan values team play, believes more effort can only mean more success, and does not believe things are so complicated that you have to be a rocket scientist to understand what's goin down. When people start thinkin too much, and tryin to get too devious, clever, and complicated, whether in personal interactions or any other aspect of what they're doin, they're usually off-track.
On the one hand, Deron has since said that he "hated" Sloan his first year, and felt they could have made the playoffs if he (Williams) had played more. On the other hand, he has often also said that the whole experience made him a better player in the long run and was ultimately a benefit for him.
For his part, Sloan has conceded that he "probably screwed (Deron) up some," with his strategy, but he has explained that he thought it was important for Williams to earn his playin time and not just have it handed to him because he was the third pick in the draft. He had, of course, seen where a prima donna attitude can lead (with AK).
Five years later, Deron is clearly one of, if not the, best point guard(s) in the league. He busted his *** in the off-season after his first year and came back determined to prove his worth, which he certainly did, from the git-go, his second year.
Sloan has been around a long time and seen a lot of things. From what I can tell, he often takes a long-term perspective in preference to a strictly short-term view, and is willing so sacrifice some things now if he thinks it will lead to a much greater return later. All a matter of judgment and calculated risk, of course, and anyone can play monday-mornin quarterback with any decision Sloan (or any other coach) makes. That's cheap and easy.
Sloan, unlike some coaches, and unlike most fans, tends to look at the "big picture" and retain abiding faith in certain things he values. He has integrity and is honest. He aint devious and don't play games. Sloan values team play, believes more effort can only mean more success, and does not believe things are so complicated that you have to be a rocket scientist to understand what's goin down. When people start thinkin too much, and tryin to get too devious, clever, and complicated, whether in personal interactions or any other aspect of what they're doin, they're usually off-track.
GVC
Well-Known Member
eh? How was AK a prima donna before 2005? Dude was one of the biggest studs in the NBA? I don't get it.
Hopper
Banned
Then ya aint really been payin no attention, eh, Commie? Read what Mo Williams said about his first practice with the Jazz (that was, what, 2004)? AK was breakin plays, improvisin, and generally doing whatever he felt like doin, regardless of what Sloan wanted, as soon as he got his big contract, it seems.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
The problem with your post here is that it supports my argument. You cite a singular example in which Sloan benched Boozer based on in-game performance, but the Jazz lost. Kudos to Sloan for actually enforce his own philosophy. Once.
Under the theory that I have posted multiple times, however, Boozer would have been benched for one or two plays—maybe 5 minutes, possibly 10 minutes, depending on matchups and game situation—and then put back in the game. What probably happened in the scenario that you cite is that Boozer was benched for more than just a few minutes; i.e., maybe much of the fourth quarter or more. This is accounted for in what I have been proposing all along. IMHO, the bigger liability has been Okur most of the time, and he hasn’t been as prolific a scorer to compensate. And against some teams—maybe many teams—playing Boozer and Millsap together has been too short a frontcourt, even if they were both putting forth effort. And the best opportunity to slice 3 to 5 minutes per game last season was probably from Millsap, not Boozer, so I thought that Booze would be the last of the big 3 to lose minutes to Fes (unless he was dogging it more than the others, of course).
Sloan should have known this from years ago, since it’s been multiple seasons that he’s tried Boozer and Millsap (and Boozer and Okur, for that matter) unsuccessfully against Gasol and Bynum/Odom. That’s why it’s been so baffling (and damaging to the team) for Sloan to not go out of his way put Fes (and the young backup bigs before him) on the court to get the crucial development minutes, especially when Fes hasn’t been disastrous out there most of the time.
It was so obvious that interior defense was the #1 one problem that, in the summer of 2009, Kevin O’Connor—who isn’t one to say much—acknowledged that interior defense was one of their biggest problems. Yet Sloan sticks with the triumvirate of Boozer, Millsap, and Okur for most of the season (for two seasons, really), and, lo and behold! The Twin Towers of Tinseltown are there to beat the Jazz in the playoffs (and in a crucial game toward the end of the season). Experience might mean that you recognize a mistake when you do it
Given what Fes has done just from the 2010 playoffs to now, imagine how much better he would’ve been if he’d gotten another 5 MPG (which, not coincidentally, is about as much time required to bench Boozer or Okur when they are dogging) during the past three years, or even one year. It would’ve been hard to beat the Lakers without Kirilenko, but Fesenko did pretty damn decent for not having more than scraps of minutes during the past three seasons, even when he had done well, as go4jazz pointed out. And bear in mind that given that Fes lost less than 10 pounds during the off-season, weight wasn’t a big factor. He’s probably in better shape, but he rarely had gotten enough minutes to test his conditioning much anyway, and as I have written ad infinitum, he’s more agile (or less slow) than Okur and Ostertag and Tree and Eaton anyway.
Again, you’re going back to rating players on practice, not performance. I didn’t think that Fes has been particularly nonchalant in games; at times, he has been too “chalant,” fouling people too quickly, which has sometimes been a good thing, but he has committed and continues to commit unnecessary fouls (probably because he’s inexperienced). Inconsistent overall he has been, but as I pointed out exhaustively, most young players at all talent levels are.
If there is a battle lost here, it’s that Sloan has given players like Fes some hope when they have gone out and have done well, only to be “rewarded” with a DNP for the next several games. It happened to Koufos, too, and while I think that Kouf has less talent (starting with build, also defensively) than Fes, KK2 did OK in his rookie year when Boozer was out, and then was banished to the bench for no particular reason. Talking about inconsistency, I don’t regard a coach putting a player in multiple games because of injury, seeing that the player does OK (for a young player) and then not letting him see the floor AT ALL for nearly the rest of the season as consistent coaching or development. Even in that point, Fes was the higher priority in my book, and sure enough, the Lakers pwned the Jazz that year in no small part because Utah had no answer to the interior D. If Fes had had 2000 minutes or more under his belt by now, just as 10 MPG would supply, he’d be far farther along, independent of his effort in practice. Of course if he had worked harder of the court, he probably would be farther along too. But on-court time is a necessary condition to good performance. No player, from Kobe to Koufos, is immune from such a principle.
Hopper
Banned
S2. your thesis in always the same, to wit: That you know more about the players strengths and weaknesses, whether mental or physical, the game of basketball, etc., than Sloan, Phil Johnson, Ty Corbin, and all the rest of the Jazz organization combined. Seein as how the GM's rate Sloan as the second-best coach, Johnson and Corbin and the 1st and second best assistants in the league, give O'Connor high marks, etc., it is quite noteworthy that you, with no coaching experience whatsoever, outclass them by a wide margin.
Here's an excerpt from an interview with Sloan, near the beginning of the 2003-04 season, after which he was voted by the NBA coaches (Sporting News poll) to be the coach of the year:
https://www.insidehoops.com/sloan-interview-102403.shtml#ixzz12emT1QEz
Again: "...if you don't have expectations that your guys are going to come play hard every night... then you're just teaching them how to lose."
You, S2, appear to be a professor of molly-coddlin, a teacher of losing techniques, and a mentor of losers, by Sloan's standards. Too bad he's the coach, and you aint, eh?
Here's an excerpt from an interview with Sloan, near the beginning of the 2003-04 season, after which he was voted by the NBA coaches (Sporting News poll) to be the coach of the year:
"While many have low expectations of the no-Malone, no-Stockton Jazz this season, Coach Sloan made it clear that even thinking that way is like already admitting defeat.
InsideHoops.com: The Utah Jazz this year, this a new situation in that, something you haven't had to deal with for quite a while.
Jerry Sloan: Well, it's not new, it's still just basketball, just basketball with different people.
InsideHoops.com: True, but with lowered expectations this year...
Jerry Sloan: Well maybe other people have low expectations, but if you don't have expectations that your guys are going to come play hard every night, and you're going to expect them to do everything they can to try to win, then you're just teaching them how to lose. And our job is to try to teach young players how to play together, how to compliment each other, learn some of the things about the game, and hopefully win some games.
https://www.insidehoops.com/sloan-interview-102403.shtml#ixzz12emT1QEz
Again: "...if you don't have expectations that your guys are going to come play hard every night... then you're just teaching them how to lose."
You, S2, appear to be a professor of molly-coddlin, a teacher of losing techniques, and a mentor of losers, by Sloan's standards. Too bad he's the coach, and you aint, eh?
The best thing Fess can do for this team is figure out how to become a dominant rebounder. That will take pressure off Jefferson and Millsap so they can stay fresh on the offensive end. Malone always benefited from having another strong rebounder behind him.
Hopper
Banned
For you, Commie, here's another excerpt from that same interview (on October 23, 2003)
InsideHoops.com: And what have you seen from Andrei Kirilenko, as far as his growth as a player goes?
Jerry Sloan: He's got a lot to learn. He's a young player, he's got a lot to learn. Learn how to play with other people, learn situation basketball, learn the 24-second clock. There's a tremendous number of things he has to understand to be effective, rather than just going with his athletic flow and just ducking his head and trying to overpower people in this league, because there's always a match for you. They'll stop you some way, I don't care who you are.
InsideHoops.com: No matter how strong you are.
Jerry Sloan: Well there's always something you have to be able to adjust to. If you can't adjust then you'll be the same player ten years from now. We hope he's a better player each year, that's our primary objective, is to try to help them become a better player, whatever it takes for us to do, our coaches and all of us are trying to do that with everybody.
InsideHoops.com: Any one thing you stress with Kirilenko more than anything else?
Jerry Sloan: Yeah, learn how to play.
It seems Sloan wasn't thrilled with the way he perceived AK's ability to "play with other people," putative "stud," or not, eh, Commie?